Class Match Ups/Counters

I keep seeing people complain about certain classes being overpowered or unbalanced and most of the complaints are rash, ridiculous, not properly thought out, or rage induced. In this thread I hope to offer some insight on what to do/what not to do against certain opponents using the following format.
Class VS-
Other Class: Advantage

Let me start off by saying that all matchups involving Assault are pretty even and are entirely situational.

1. Sniper VS-
Tank: Sniper
The sniper can basically sit back from a tank and shoot his big, slow moving head. If the tank gets close, the sniper can freeze/flak him.

Gunner: Even
Obviously from afar the sniper will have a field day, but up close the gunner can tear him up in half a second. Snipers hiding behind glass can be mortared out and the gunner's level 3 deploy can give him a helpful shield to take out the sniper without the fear of being headshotted. The sniper can easily pick the gunner apart through proper use of cover though. Up close, if the sniper has traps down, the gunner can jetpack over them. Overall, it comes down to the more intelligent/skilled player.

Support: Sniper
From afar, the sniper wrecks. Close up, the support has a hard time avoiding traps due to no prolonged jump. Also, the SMG outranges the shotty and the sniper has enough speed to keep his safe distance.

Assassin: Even
The assassin can 1 hit assassinate a sniper and is too fast to snipe in most situations (My sig begs to differ). Up close, an assassin can jump over traps and assassinate. If the sniper is careful enough he may be able to avoid the assassin. The sniper's advantages are much better explained in the assassin category.

Sniper:
Shoot first, aim high!

2. Support- 1st off, anyone complaining about the hurt gun is dumb. It takes 5+ seconds to kill all classes but assassin I believe and if you can't hit them, aim better.
Support VS
Assassin: Support
The assassin is easily shottied and can't assassinate unless she has a level 3 passive. Even if she manages to, the firebase will finish her during the grapple.

Gunner: Gunner
The gunner can out-turret the firebase and kills the support in under a second with the minigun. Also, the mortar can kill the firebase in only about 5 shots. The support's only hope is to get insanely close and shotty the gunner 2-3 times while avoiding his minigun.

Tank: Tank
The tank's jet gun destroys firebases and outranges the shotty. The charge is a great way to get close and knock the support down.

Support:
Either get your hurt gun on them first, or get close enough to shotty them. Since supports usually rely on teammates, 1v1 versus another support is very rare.

3. Gunner VS
Tank: Even
Due to the tank's high health, he can withstand a beating from the gunner and can tear him up with the jet gun/death spin. He can also railgun from afar. The gunner's minigun will consume the tank if he makes even the slightest mistake or is caught out in the open.

Assassin: Gunner
Assassin's only hope is to get the sword assassination. Anything else is minigun domination.

Gunner:
Whoever shoots or deploys first.

4. Tank VS
Assassin: Tank
Assassin can't 1 hit grapple and gets burned to death close up.

Tank
Charge them and knock them down while proceeding to burn them with the jet gun.

5. Assassin
This is the worst class in the game. It has so little health, can only 1 shot most classes from behind, can't deal much damage without grappling, and is countered by the opposing player jumping repeatedly to avoid the grapple. A little known fact that makes the assassin completely useless against certain players is that with headphones, you can hear her coming from any direction while she is cloaked. The only ray of sunshine for the assassin is that her shurikens do a surprising amount of damage, but they are insanely inaccurate. She can also take out turrets while cloaked if no one is looking.
So her only jobs against a skilled team would be to take out turrets (only if no one is near them to see you) and shuriken standing still opponents in the back (best case scenario: she kills them and gets called out, then they proceed to kill her with 3 bullets.)

Overall, the most balanced team will prevail. Each class does its own duty (except assassin) and team work is the most overpowered and unbalanced weapon of all!!!

** Anyone who plays a class 80% or more of the time should post in this thread with their experiences vs each class.**



GUNNER

vs. ASSAULT

This is a very close match up if both players are good. I'd say if the assault is better, then this match up is very winnable for him. Mixing bombs and dash attacks, plus critical shots from the assault rifle can hurt and fluster a gunner. A level 3 dash attack is VERY strong against the gunner. However, alot of the times, the minigun is already spinning for a good gunner, which rips up assaults who don't respond INSTANTLY.

Advantage: GUNNER (Slightly)


vs. TANK

Now I've played Tank a couple of times, and I really understand their weaknesses well. Essentially, they want to be VERY close or VERY far from a gunner. If they're close, they can shoot their jet and then death bloom and hope it's enough, or they can try to rail gun (which is ineffective against a good gunner w/o help). However, the tank is VERY limited mid range when alot of gunners can keep the minigun spinning and pick the slow moving tank apart. The only real advantage I give the tank is his dash move, but it's not a OHK, which means that you shouldn't really start a tank v gunner fight with it.

Advantage: GUNNER (Slightly)


vs. SUPPORT

Okay, as a very good gunner, I can tell you this is always my hardest matchup. Essentially, they support can stay behind cover and airstike you for a OHK, shotgun you if he's close for a 2-4 hit kill, or just let his firebase do the work for him (which really hurts gunners who aren't smart about taking them out). Obviously if I have my minigun going and I pop out and catch him, he has little chance, however it seems like with the mixed bag he's got to work with that allow him to fight w/o actually getting into a gun fight gives him a moderate advantage.

Advantage: SUPPORT (Moderate)


vs. ASSASSIN

LOL, .2 second minigun kill or wait for the failed assassination, spam the ground pound, then finish the dazed assassin off. The only problem I have with an assassin is when they're in groups of 2-3 and just take turns grappling me, or when the animation of them assassinating me gives my opponents time to rally against me. Otherwise, BRING EM ON!

Advantage: GUNNER (LOL)

vs. GUNNER

Well, in a mirror match, it depends on 3 things essentially: Team support, accuracy, and balls. If you have team support, you should beat the other gunner. If you have no team support, you can still jump and strafe to win the fight (alot of gunners stand still to keep accuracy like alot of shooters, but movement doesn't affect the accuracy in this game). And alot of the times, it's all about who tries to run first. Sometimes you can run if it's a long range fight, but if you're in close, NEVER try to run unless you have a chance at getting away. Even if you're gonna die, put as many shots into him as possible so your team can finish, because running only gives him a chance to finish you unchallenged.

vs. SNIPER

I actually don't mind playing pub snipers at all, however truly skilled OHK snipers will dominate you. Most of the time snipers in pubs are so bad, I have fun strafing them from medium range and killing them while they miss shot after shot. However, I've played some VERY good snipers (Majin, Sinister6606, etc) who can literally make you not want to push to their side of the map. However, if you can get them close and avoid traps and flak's, then you're golden since they're so weak.

Advantage vs GOOD Sniper: Sniper
Advantage vs 98% of the people who play Sniper: Gunner

The assassin requires a different mind set to succeed in targeting other players. I find that an assassin most of all needs a self-preservation instinct, living to fight another day will only annoy and keep the enemy paranoid. Also, I don't know how far the sound of her cloak goes, but I believe you can surprise even headset players if you hang behind them a fair range and go for a lunge + assassinate rather then just run up behind them and assassinate where they have time to listen for you.

Really, the match ups are the same for anything the assassin wants to deal with. You need to surprise them from unexpected sides (preferably from behind) and know when to retreat using the smoke bomb jump. If you come at them predictably, you will die.

Remember that the cloak isn't the same cloak as the spy from TF2. Up close you're as clear as day. Use it to flank them while in open areas to avoid visual confirmation.

Vs. Tank
The only real match up. Unless you've been observing them back out of a fight wounded, NEVER attack a tank. I just make it a point not to because the spin attack will make escape difficult, even if you do, by some miracle, kill them. Pepper them with shurikens if you must, but just cloak and back off if one is in view.

Vs. Support
Are they camping their firebase? Cloak as soon as you assassinate them and the firebase is none the wiser. Just be aware of where his teammates are. You're gonna need to assassinate them because of how their shotgun negates your close combat advantage.

Vs. Sniper
Snipers are by and large just as fragile as you are. Watch the ground for traps. If he's absolutely barricaded himself between two traps on a bridge, an entire shuriken clip will either kill him or put him in the red. If you want to retreat before things get hot, you'll probably disturb his concentration as he watches his back too.

Vs. Assault
Like any assassin match up, you need to keep your distance behind them and go for the lunge + assassinate. Assaults just love upgrading charge to 3 and ringing you out if it doesn't kill you. If you screw up, don't hang around and try finishing him. Smoke bomb jump away and he'll have to try extra hard just to track you down.

Vs. Gunner
Just like assault, but easier to lunge + assassinate because of their speed, and jusst as dangerous because of their slam. Testing has revealed that if you initiate your smoke bomb before he uses slam, you won't be knocked away, so that's good. Like how the tank can just spin randomly and catch you, wandering into front of a gunner means running the risk of random minigun fire, so try approaching vertically.

Vs. Assassin
I prefer to smoke bomb away then deal with this headache. Hopefully if they get a front grab on you, you're wearing some sort of armor endorsement. Then you can counter grapple and show them the importance of having armor on your endorsements.

I play snipers.

Vs Tank : Sniper wins.
--Slow moving tank can't do anything.

Vs Gunner : Sniper Wins
--Slow moving gunner can't do much

Vs Assassin : Sniper wins
-- I put Armor Gold on. They can't one hit me from the front and 9/10 times after they grab me and don't kill me I grab them back and kill them with a grappler.

Vs Support
--Support wins. Too fast moving and hard to hit.

Vs Assault
--Assault wins. Same was above.

Tank vs...

GUNNER- You have to approach them from behind, or else you're gonna get shredded by his minigun. A smart Gunner will not let you do this often, but when you get the jump on him, he's toast. Advantage: Gunner (only slightly)

ASSASSIN- You are the ultimate Assassin counter. If you have an Armor endorsement, you've got this won. As soon as you see yourself being grappled, mash LT as hard and fast as you can, and then follow up with burning her a bit more. She'll die instantly. There's not much Assassins can do against Tanks except pick off weakened ones or coordinate with their team for the kill. Advantage: Tank

ASSAULT- It's roughly the same deal with the Gunner, except this guy can charge-grapple you or bomb you for a ring out. He has very high mobility, so you probably won't win this. Advantage: Assault

SNIPER- I don't actually think headshots kill you in one shot, but I could be wrong. Either way, you can counter-snipe with your railgun. Just watch out for traps and flak when moving up close to him and approach him from the side so he can't grapple you. Charge + spin instagibs him. Advantage: Tank

SUPPORT- Oh, man, this is tricky. Usually I try to not touch supports at all and let people with heavier damage dispatch them. You're a big target, so it'll be easier for him to stick you with Airstrikes, and the Firebase is a bitch. Your Jet Gun pumps out much more damage than the weaker Hurt/Heal Gun, but the Shotgun hurts. If he isn't near his Firebase, you can get this, but it's very difficult otherwise. Advantage: Support

TANK- May the best man win.

I think you need to play against better gunners

I've played all the classes for at least a few hours but I've played Assassin extensively. At first, I thought it was an underpowered class: Gunners would stomp me, Supports would shotgun me or kite me with their drain gun once I was out of stealth, you know, the usual stuff. But let me tell you, when you play Assassin well, it's not like that at all. As StriderHoang said above, you really need a self-preservation instinct as an Assassin. Many Assassins simply bite off more then they can chew, but a well-played Assassin is a lethal weapon that will leave you frustrated at your inability to stop him slaughtering your team and escaping every single time. That's what I think, anyway. It's not uncommon for me to get matches where I go 25-1 or better as an Assassin. You just have to pick your targets and go about it the right way.

ASSASSIN

Vs Tank:

Don't bother. Leave them alone unless they're already wounded. They are your ultimate counter. It's possible to kill them with a combination of a back-stab, blind, lunge and sword swipes, but it's really not worth it. You'll die 9 times out of 10 even if they're not as good a player as you are.

Vs. Gunner

Gunner is my second-most played class, and I know what most Gunners probably think of Assassins as I've been on that side of it myself; "Oh, an Assassin there, I'll just jet-pack up a bit and then pancake him!". Easy, right? Against a bad Assassin that lets you see him, yes. Against a good one, not really. Gunners are slow. I can easily get around behind you from a safe distance with stealth, then dash up from behind and OHKO you (once I have my sword) before you can react. I have done this time and time again. Gunners are really just free kills for me most of the time, if you think you've been seen just smoke bomb jump away and try again. There's no excuse for not getting the OHKO on the Gunner if you go about it carefully.

Vs. Support:

This is a more even match up. They're dangerous due to their shotgun, and should be handled with more care then the Gunner due to their higher mobility, but the Support is still very much manageable for the Assassin. Simply wait for the right moment and then get the OHKO from behind. Never approach from the front of the sides. Make sure to re-stealth during the grapple animation so that his firebase and any nearby turrets don't burn you to a crisp.

Vs. Assault:

More challenging then the Gunner, but less so then the Support. You'll have to wait for your moment here as Assaults tend to run around and jet-pack a lot. Still, excluding their charge they can't kill you as fast as a Gunner or Support (with shotgun) so even if you're caught it's just a small matter of smoke-bomb jumping away and trying again later.

Vs. Sniper

The Tank might be the Assassin's absolute counter, but this is the true challenge. A good Assassin Vs. a good Sniper is IMO the most heated match-up in the entire game. It's simple: He will camp his traps (as in, he will have one to his left, one to his right and be standing on one in most situations), you have to avoid them while also getting in range to grapple him. You can scare him off with your Shruiken, but managing to grapple a Sniper standing on his traps is immensely satisfying. I had such an experience earlier, where a Sniper was on a bridge with traps all around his feet. In the end I smoke-bomb jumped from below him, landed directly behind him and grappled him to death even though I was frozen by his trap. It's a hard match up for the Assassin, and it takes a great deal more effort on the Assassin's part then the Snipers, but it's so worth it when you break that Snipers kill-streak.

Vs. Assassin

May the best man win? I find that skill plays little part in this mirror match-up, it really just comes down to which side the server wants to favor in landing the grapple first. I often just smoke-bomb away in these situations as survival isn't guaranteed.

A good gunner will never lose to even a skilled assassin. You have to approach from the back, or you'll die. This is very difficult when the other team has a setup in effect. Even then, the only time you'll get him is when the sound of your cloak is drowned out by his minigun. Otherwise he'll just turn around and shred you.

If you think an assassin is completely useless, you have zero idea how to use her and you only face noobs who have zero idea how to use her.

I play competitive privates with some of the best players in the game, and she is not used for the reasons stated.

Couldn't you potentially approach the gunner, blind him with your smoke bomb, and THEN grapple? It's complicated, but it gets around him.

I respect your opinions, let me start off with that right off the bat, but I believe your opinion on the sin being a terrible character is crazy....

I"ve been wanting to register on here for some time now, but after reading that, it sealed the deal, I had to reply lol.
Most sins in pubs are terrible, maybe that"s where you base your opinion or maybe you are not good with her, or both? However I'll tell you right now myself and I'm sure others are great with the sin. I countinously go 20-30+kills/1-10 deaths.
Just my input man, keep up the good work on class vs class though, but remember everyone plays differently.

Think about playing against the best players, and a team strategy is in place, it's not just about your own stats. How can you help team shoot? How can you kill skilled players of other races, not just pub players?

I would gladly play with or against you, I'm just saying, good sins do exist so please don't knock it bro.

I also roll with the sniper, I use sniper and sin exclusively and do good for myself and the team. I do need to work on my sniping headshots though.

Btw I k ow how to help my team with the sin I could go all out and explain in detail but that's a lot of work. I'm just sayin man have an open mind.

Gunner doesn't have to aim at you, he just has to mash slam when he thinks you are nearby. The only way to attack gunners is go for the kill before they can do anything. You need to do a dash attack into a grapple or a grapple from behind (if they don't have armor.) Gunners are almost as hard for assassins to kill as tanks.

This pretty much. If they have teammates pushing behind him, he's not even a valid target. Go farm some bots in the other lane until a different opportunity presents itself.

I still need to do something about the mystery of how far the cloak hum can be heard, because it's not like you can hear it across the map. This is why I prescribe to lunge + assassinate. Like spies in TF2, your success varies on just how dedicated a player your target is and the circumstances of his surroundings.

The spy and the assassin may be different on many levels, but both rely on ambush and surprise to get anywhere in a game. That's difficult to achieve when there are so many shooter games out there getting people used to the idea of being flanked and surprised.

But hey, I play assassin because she's different. I especially get a thrill out of pestering the enemy more than killing them. I can only imagine how my target feels when I wound them badly but decide to back out and I leave them aching for a revenge kill. Assassins are at least number one in escaping danger.

On a side note, this is starting to feel a little flamey. Why don't we just assume the settings of the advice are to occur within quick matchmaking games?

What is it that makes the assassin bad in competetive gaming? Is it the sound that ruins the sneaky part of the class? Because without the sneaky kills the assassin is pretty useless. I can imagine that once an experienced player hears that sound he can start mashing the A button making grappling extremly hard. The times I meet a teamwork-oritented group of players I can get behind them and assassinate the support who is usualy at the back of the group, but this is in pub games of course.

But I will get behind you at a fair distance, then dash up to you and get the grapple from behind before you can react. I don't bother until I'm in position to do this. Also, Gunners always die from a back-grapple from the sword regardless of if they have armor or not. I have tested this in private matches. Even Gold Armor will only let them survive a back-grapple from the dagger, not from the sword.

Gunners can be OHKO'd from behind with the sword, they also move very slow. That makes it easy enough for the Assassin if they approach in the right way. As long as you use your dash to close the distance quickly and grapple before they can react to the sound of your cloak Gunners aren't a problem for the Assassin. If you get caught you're screwed, yes, but then that's your own fault.

as an assassin if the assassination doesnt kill them jump instantly to avoid the slam or death blossom, gunner is easy after his slam cut him up while rotating him making him less accurate due to the bullets not be caught up to his aimer, hope he dies otherswise once that gun starts turning your fucked. for the tank dash back lunge repeat.. or just dont piss him off in the first place. or travel in a pack. while you have him mounted have a teamate or a teamates gun him down . you may not physically have killed him but psychologically he knows what just happened..
im at 76 and going throught each character trying to figure out strengths and weaknesses and also perfect builds.
i will post when i have them mastered so that noobs everywhere can get a kill or two every now and then. and seasoned players like you guys can perfect your obliteration of all challengers.
thanks for the forum tho.

side note to your discussion, i gotten uber streaks and mvps with all classes facing really good people so it is possible to do if you can know your role.. if you think i play with or against scrubs. play me. XJaeX a smart teammate would be nice but if you need to know that any class can be good i could teach you..