Civil discussion about Juice Machines in PMs

I feel like turning off Juice machines in private matches is going to take some real getting used to. The only reason I would oppose it is because of the fact that it would be 2-3 times more difficult than it already is to get an enemy's ball down without it. With the fact that teams are very rarely stacked anymore, once map control has been established, you just kill them within their spawn area for 10-15 minutes while the bots never get past the Tank/Assassin. I mean, it would certainly add an element of strategy to the game (when to kill the Assassin/Tank to breach the ball) but I honestly don't know if the current group of PM players are at the caliber to think that far ahead.



What are your feelings?

If you feel like you need to be an elitist scumbag, stay the f*** out of my thread.

Thanks.

^ sarcasm? people hardly pick captains cause it takes to long and if they do its because Wildman says he wont play. But on a little more on topic, i see people holding there juice more so they can coordinate a push and gunners wont have juice that much if any. Its a sad day for gunners

Taking 5 mins to make "fair" teams > Stacked teams

Juice is used as a clutch in pm's. There's been many times where I play against Jeff and i'm able to beat him simply because I was able to buy juice a few times and keep him in his base. If there was no juice buying, their team would have won because they are more skilled, not because of juice.

This is why I think juice should be turned off. Also did you mean to say "as a crutch"?

If you wanna pm me gunked, I'll read it. Essentially what were trying to do try to turn this game into a more team game. This isn't because you rape with juice gunked, chron and I have toyed around with this idea for a while. However, recently there's been a greater number of matches where absolutely nothing is accomplished, despite juice being on cool down practically the whole 10 minutes. It's actually quite simple, if the juice buyers actually did something other than buy it, slay the gunner/support and maybe another straggeler, then automatically run back hoping to rely on juice again, we could keep it on. Lately juice is used to pad the k/d, instead of trying to get the ball down. The games have very little communication/teamwork and all it has no become is who can hold the juice machines. Instead of juice being rewarded to the person who bought it last, it's now earned by the player who is alive for a while, picks up boxes, or punches bots, which I'm perfectly fine with. If you're a gunner or assault and you're punching bots a lot, you're hurting your team, so I'm fine with people making that their decision.

If gunners and assaults used juice to pin the enemy down in the base while the bot pushers try to down the ball, it would be fine, but were popping juice on our own half of the map because we see a sniper, then we camp the juice machines to do it all over again. One is teamwork, and one is not. Besides, why use your juice properly or to win if you can just go buy more right? Well now you can't rely on that if you misuse it, which to me sounds like rewarding the players who makes the smart moves. That's essentially what competitive gaming is about.

Turtling will be stupid as well as building turrets. I can play any class, and have just one competent player on my team and their turrets will be down. All it takes is 3 seconds of teamwork. Middle map is still the place to hold, although I think playing aggressive will be more of a benefit, than a mistake. I still find the Anni a great game changer, and it should be protected/controlled when it's close to up. Once hit, you can go through the order of operations as a team. Isolate the gunner, kill the close slayers as your tank n sin push in bots. Identify the enemy bot pushers and kill them, then contain them via gunner assault sniper playing aggressive. Anyone who has earned juice at this point becomes an asset to their team, and can either be the game changer/ender, or be another K/d whore who gets a couple kills, just to fall back and essentially accomplish nothing in terms of the objective.

I'm ready to defend the decision to turn off juice if anyone wants to discuss it's pro's/cons. So far I believe the assassin getting juice quicker is not a big concern. Aware players can avoid a juiced slaying assassin. If he juices for the objective it's gonna take some good awareness and teamwork to prevent a ball drop, which I encourage. Hopefully if they are that motivated for juice, the tank will catch them in the lane and kill them. Which brings up another point, if you're gonna punch bots uncontested, its my teams fault for not being there. I don't think it will happen often though, as most boys have a pusher. I believe the tank can play a great role in preventing bot punching. A feedle tank game could actually be extremely beneficial if that's the case.

I think you guys need to think at the big picture here. Were trying to promote smart decisions, communication, and teamwork instead of a $500 instant crutch that this game's primary concern has become. Were looking to reward the better teams, not the purple pro who got to the juice machine at the right time.

I feel I do some of my best writing while taking a dump

reported. wtf? why you leave pm?

I think it's a great idea, but we should test it and see what happens. It shouldn't take long to make a good push, and you sure as hell don't need juice with decent players.

I haven't played PMs in a while, but it seems to me like the best way to determine if it's the right idea is to test it out and see how it works.

Personally, I play assassin and support, so juice machines never really matter to me, although it is nice to be able to sneak behind the team and steal the juice when we're pushed back.

I think it would change the meta a little bit in that it would make every class want to at least harass bots a little bit for the juice gain. Even gunners might want to rain down the occassional mortar when they have some free time.

I also do think it would make dropping the ball much more difficult, as well as make turrets much more destroyable.


It would make the assassin have much more viable slaying power, though, since the sin is the only one that can really spam juice anymore.

kckzi would definitely drop out of top 10 anything if this were implemented.

not that my opinion matters but I think it's a good idea and I agree with everything teapot said.

it never hurts to try new things anyways. i still would like someone to upload the matches.

Seems to be a success so far with no juice machines...longer games more strategy and timing needed for bot pushes.

Matches were much more intense tonight! So I think we've settled upon no juice buying, no bot buying, and 20 minute games. It all comes down to actual teamwork, and it takes some very smart bot pushing to get the win. I don't even think we had an overtime game without dropping the ball in regulation. The assassin is a bit more slay-heavy now, but it doesn't need to be. Statlines were still the same for the most part, but I found it much easier to play tank without worrying about getting juiced on repeatedly by the assault and gunner. I played a little of everything but sniper and support, but the average juices looked like this to me-

Assassin: 7-10
Sniper: 5-7
Assault: 3-5
Tank: 2-3
Support: 1-2
Gunner: 1-2

While I would say no juice is more fun and relies more on teamwork and smart players, we need Gunked back on private matches so please turn it back on.
On a serious note there were some games where it really felt like a turtle fest (not to an extreme) but there were just too many level 3 turrets and if you add shaveices you had to coordinate juices to take their defenses out, one assassin was not good enough!
But if I have to choose between juice and no juice I would prefer no juice
Its also a way to improve and learn not to rely on juice (something I myself have to work on).

I had a lot of fun in the privates tonight. I originally planned to only stay an hour but stayed two since they were a lot of fun. There was still enough juicing that it wasn't a non issue but the ball dropped before OT in all but one match I think. Sorry for buying gremlins that one round and having them drop the ball, I really didn't realize we had decided against it since bot buying was still active.

I actually enjoyed playing off class(assault/support) more than assassin but I think that was more because I tend to not use my juice as assassin to slay and it felt like I needed to now that juice machines were off and slaying was toned down a bit. I still have that mentality that I need to push bots and nothing else. I do think it'd be relatively easy to transition over to focus on turret destruction with juice though.

I need some off class training though, that match as assault I was the weak link on the team for sure!

someone come find me when these are going. i would like to see for myself how they pan out.

Kinda sad to see I missed Chron's invite by 2 hours :? Would've liked to see the juiceless privates in person. Actually tried to accept the invite 2 hours late, but it said the server was at capacity. Figured that meant you had enough.

If I could be so bold, it would be awesome if you made a new thread advertising the next night you want to do these. Might see people that hate juice whoring get more interested in privates, and might see people like me that don't play that often actually set aside a little time specifically for it.

If I am hosting the machines will never go back on. These matches were great and only one lazor match out if the like fifteen total matches did a team get some heavy turrets and I think that was when we had Jon go gunner cause satoshi stoke zatchmos spot and teams were really unbalanced lol it was still a regulation win as we're all minus two or thre but safely three out of four games tonight ended in regulation. I can't express enough how much better and more satisfying matches were tonight.

Don't tell me your becoming a rider too?

games were fun last night and i learned a few things.. gold rate of fire is almost useless sometimes cause of the lag so its almost best to have each class either gold armor then silver rate if need be.

also learned that its a pain to take out rockets as a tank and the only thing tanks can do is stun them for the assassin.

With juice buying off (and hopefully no overtime) we can probably do Spunky without it getting too laggy :shock: :mrgreen: