Camera controller

All the RTS games I have played use a very bad camera controller
(where the forward direction is locked)

This is extremely unpleasant and impractical

For me games such as Supreme Commander and Toy Soldiers are completely ruined because it feels like I am a blinkered horse ...

From a functional point of view they are also deeply flawed ... you can not SEE what you NEED to see in order to make decisions without endlessly "gaming" the camera controls ... this is tedious, tiring, boring and NOT entertaining

Remember ... a video game is a form of ENTERTAINMENT!
That means every element of the game should be ENTERTAINING ...
Sorry for the caps but most video game designers/developer forget this simple fact ...

IMO there is a common sense "right way" to handle cameras that works fine with RTS games, I have created test scenes in Unity to prove it (to myself)

The common sense element is this:

Game cameras should mimic the human head

Human heads have yaw and pitch
Human heads translate on the horizontal plane

But in a game where camera orbiting is required (like PA)
you need an Orbit mode also ...

In my test application tapping LB toggles between MOVE and ORBIT modes
the origin of the orbit is determined by raycasting the forward vector of the camera

This is a typical workflow:

in MOVE mode look at where you want to go ...
toggle to ORBIT mode
now ORBIT (the planet) to where you need to be
toggle to MOVE mode

this is quick, intuitive and lets you see what you need (or want) at any time

Please make sure you don't destroy the entertainment value of this game with a bad camera controller ...

Perhaps you should create a poll to see if others are also dissatisfied by RTS games camera controllers. I would be interested to see the response!

I for one have never been dissatisfied by either Supreme Commander's or PA's camera controllers and don't feel like they limit my entertainment at all (or impact how competent I am at the game).

Can someone tell me what the OP has been smoking, and where it can be purchased?


The proposed camera is what would destroy the game; that's a horrible suggestion. I disagree with it completely. I think the current system is far superior.

If I interpreted it correctly, the time taken to move the camera to a new location is dependent on the distance to the point. While that's realistic for a human head, it's most assuredly not ideal.

And you simply cannot call that quick.

I'm not entirely sure how this is supposed to work but if I'm correct in my assumption it would make me seasick in 3 minutes or less.

Hahaha I am willing to bet the two posts above me represent the reaction of 99.9% of the RTS community to the OPs suggestion.

I still dont totally understand what he/she hates so much about the current camera system...

Yeah, what they said. The camera of Supreme Commander is perfect.

I want to be able to look at what I need to look at

I want to be able to look up, or to the right or left
without being forced to change position or zoom

Just like I do in real life

Target locked cameras force you into contorted and unnatural camera motion
just to see what you need to see to play the game

I don't find it entertaining having my head held in a vice for no good reason

But... the stuff you need to look at is below you... that's why the camera is focused there.

Supreme Commander had severe technical limitations
by target locking the camera they ensured the number of objects to be rendered was low

But we are in 2013 now ...

If PA has this ridiculous camera as well then it will be a tragedy

I haven't seen the alpha, I take it they have copied the moronic camera then?

haha! This!

but still, even in PA where there is stuff above you - it sounds like the OP wants a first person style camera. Surely the idea behind RTS is that you are inside your command centre/ACU looking down at a screen commanding your units.

... But strategic zoom allowed you to see everything at once...

I really, honestly, truely don't get your problem. But I can tell you now, you'll have to deal with this 'moronic' camera that works fine for 99.9%+ of all RTS players.

Not sure if troll, or just ignorant of how SupCom actually worked.

I was thinking the same. You were free to have any kind of camera view, there was just no reason to use anything besides the overhead view for a clear strategic view.

Toy Soldiers is probably a better comparison

The game has the power to render from any POV

But by using the target-locked camera this happens (all the time)

- you are near a friendly tank
- you hear an air raid siren
- you want to look over and see what kind of enemy are approaching
- you can't ... you can only look at the ground
- in order to look UP and see the enemy and make a decision
- your only choice is to enter a unit

here the target-locking is working against the player
it is making it hard to play the game by starving the player of information
it is reducing the entertainment value of the game

Toy Soldiers is one of the best games ever made - just a blast of fun
but because of the bad camera system people get tired of it quickly

What I am asking for is simple

Let gamers see what they need to see in a natural and easy way

Don't "lock their head in a vice" like the other RTS games did

Am I missing something?

Is it possible to look around freely in SC?
Can I be near the ground and look up into the sky?
Can I look horizontally across the map?

Yes. Zoom in and hold spacebar.

Is it possible to look around freely in SC? Not needed ... this is not a FPS

Can I be near the ground and look up into the sky? Not needed, this is a RTS and things need to be managed from above

Can I look horizontally across the map? Not needed, again this is not a FPS , this is a RTS.


each of your questions will not be efficient in any way in a RTS game !

I have always felt that a freely controllable camera was nice for watching replays and particularly large battles. It may not be strictly required but it looks cool.

Oh yes I remember now ... haven't played SC in years

But it is still target locked so you can't LOOK at what you want

(On the xbox the camera sucks because it keeps resetting and isn't smooth)

I just checked the camera controls on Darwinia
they are intelligent ... they are similar to FPS controls in that you can LOOK
where you need to look, but they also raycast so you have a target

If you want to orbit you can combine rotate and move ...

This is an intelligent camera as it does everything the SC camera does
but also more and in an intuitive and natural way

The camera I am proposing is even better as it has exponential zoom and intelligent orbit
it allows you to see anything and travel anywhere with little effort

It doesn't force you to move when you want to look
It doesn't force you to look when you want to move

If PA developers are intelligent they will design an intelligent camera ...

I use a lot of different 3D modelling software in addition to playing games. Some cameras work well and others don't. The camera in the Alpha could use some improvement. Here are some points I've noticed being consistent in good cameras which I would like PA to adopt (where they haven't already):

. Shift and Ctrl should be used as modifiers of the mouse scroll, and mouse middle click so when combined with mouse movement 6-axis camera movements and magnification zoom (field of view) can be achieved.
. W, A, S, D, Arrow Keys, Number Pad (Number lock off), Pgup, Pgdn, (+), & (-) should be optionally used for Camera movements for 6-axis movements and magnification zoom.
. The mouse pointer should always be the focus so that when zooming (both dollying in/out and magnification) the pointer remains in the same place in the environment and on the screen. When orbiting the pointer should also position the pivot.
. Normal unmodified mouse middle click-and-drag movements are dolly movements inline with the ground plane if the is one or the view plane if there isn't. Mouse scroll controls dolly in and out. (W, A, S, D, Pgup, Pgdn)
. Ctrl should make mouse middle click-and-drag movements control the camera in first person (pitch and yaw) and make the mouse scroll control magnification (smooth scroll with softened limits). (Number Pad, (+), & (-))
. Shift should make mouse middle click-and-drag movements orbit the mouse location as a pivot and make the mouse scroll control a dolly-zoom effect ("Hitchcock Zoom"). (Shift+direction)
. It might be useful to make the Arrow Keys distinct from the WASD keys by making them control North, East, South, & West movements. Also N is already used to align the camera North to good effect.
. Space-bar should be used to toggle between 2 independent zoom levels where each is saved. This would be useful for switching focus quickly and avoiding repetitive strain from zooming. EDIT: Maybe Holding Shift could rotate the camera to the opposite side of the planet as given the shape of the map this really needs to be given a key shortcut too.

Just my thoughts...