Are Commanders sapient?

As the discussion here was getting off-topic, let's continue it in its own thread.

Here are the concerned posts (tell if I missed some):

Sapient? No.

Mike

A expert system? Yes but not sapient.

There seems to be a disagreement about the definition of "sentience". So let's see a consensual definition on Wikipedia :
Sentience

Interestingly, humans aren't the only (known) beings to be sentient. Being sentient means perceiving the external world. So following this definition, Commanders are obviously sentient, as they have sensors. So are most animals, quite a few plants and an increasing number of machines.
Things get a little bit more complicated with other variants of the definition, but it still seems that animals can be sentient.

The thing that is in fact interesting us is probably sapience.
To keep things simple, I'll go for the approximate definition of : they can think by themselves and be considered as individuals, like a human would be.
Note that it has nothing to do with having feelings (be it compassion, hate...) or not, cherishing its own continued existence or anything else we commonly associate with our own state of being human.

So, are Commanders individuals that can think and are probably self-aware? Or are they simple programs that follow their instructions?

I'll argue that it's better for them to be sapient. To rephrase Burnside's Zeroth Law a bit, people relate more to sapient individual than dumb silicon chip. Particularly if it's for incarnating them.
Playing dumb machines would be boring.

I also argue (here) that it can actually make the endless war both endless and fun.
They have no hope to really be the last one standing or even that the war will stop before the stars wink out. But they will sure have a splendid time trying, and it's not as if they could run out of galaxies to waste!
This isn't really a new idea for a culture in SF, for example the Orks in W40k are quite like that.

Well the fun part is that they are Von neumann probes, or more spesificly: Berserkers

That way they don't actually have to be dumb machines, but more of a gone horribly right tool, a tool that might have not even started out as a weapon of war.

The point you make here entitles that a program can't be as complex as a organic intelligence, but with enough forethought their original programing could be vastly different now if the commanders can learn from past experiences, and possibly even allow new commanders to leech this knowledge from them.

I don't think we can compare them to a sapient life form because the way they think is more animistic and basic: Self preservation, replication, acquisition of resources might be a better representation of what the commanders would think about.

I see what your saying, and possibly I have also fallen pray to this type of bias.

But don't you think its faceting to explore the ideas of a expert system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system) left to do its work for untold years, but left with the ability to experience what it has been doing, to learn and grow from its purpose.

You might be left with a primal program, a kind of mechanical evolution of what could become a sapient program...if by that point you could even call it that.

Possibly, but with many other examples in SF, might it not be better to explore something different?

How long might this conflict continue before the commanders do become sapient? And by then, could they ever end it? Would they be forever domed by their creators to annihilate the galaxy?

Or could they eventually find salvation?

To think they're non sapient shows an incredible lack of imagination, and a revelry in the dull and simple.

We're talking about a supposedly endless war, at some point the ability to reason and comprehend would have been an incredible advantage. (hint: from the start)

Depends on the perspective, I am not suggesting that don't have the potential, but that they haven' got there quite yet.

And the ability to reason and comprehend on a tactical and strategic basis is one thing, but to do it as a sapient is entirely another.

The commanders behave more animal like, fulfilling their basic needs, and the needs of their instinct, but nothing of a higher level.

Kinda like how you use this forum?

So instead of adding to the discussion you decide to insult me?

Yeah maybe that was a little harsh IGN so sorry for that. But the point stands, if your system is smart enough to wage war in any competent way then it really is a sapient entity.

Thanks.

And as it stands on this highly hypothetical discussion that is usually discussed by philosophers, I can't say if I am right or you are.

I effectively don't know, and can really only express my opinion.

And isn't that agree of intelligence what Expert systems are capable of?

The very definition of sapience is the ability to make sound decisions in a complex dynamic environment.

So could a learning expert system apply to such a definition?

Or would that just be an AI, but then at what point does an AI become non-artificial?

Could the commanders have changed from one state to another over time?

This really is philosophy now. But explain to me how it wouldn't. What limits do you perceive for intelligence? Would a system orders of magnitude smarter than humans consider us intelligent, sapient, sentient individuals?

You do have a point.

I am afraid I cannot answer that question.

A problem, which could arise with sapience, would be, that simply stopping to fight and ending the conflict that way could be the reasonable decision.

There has to be some sort of motivation for continuing an endless conflict, despite the gigantic material investments.

The only solution I can find is, that the Commanders do not know about the duration of the conflict they are in. Otherwise they would realize that they fight an endless war, which would make stopping to fight the only reasonable solution. Assuming sapience includes the ability to realize that perpetuating an endless conflict has no use and therefore makes no sense.

Is a Commander intelligent? Of course! They are tasked with making difficult decisions on a dynamic battlefield, AND they're the player's avatar. Out witting the opponent is the best way towards victory.

Is their intelligence human? Of course not. They're machines. Vast and complex commands can be accomplished at the drop of a hat. Their field awareness and strategic importance covers entire worlds and even centuries of combat. There's nothing human about that.

Can they have domestic desires? Why not? A Commander can change entire worlds. What's to stop them from trying to create their own sandbox(other than the harsh reality of war, of course)? One of the goals of the Arm was to rebuild organic life after the conflict ended, for example.

Can a Commander be mad? Absolutely. The entire war is mad. That's the entire premise of every other game, and is no different here.

Can Commanders be flawed? Of course! It's a war. Units take damage, Commanders get shot, and it is not always possible or prudent to be the same thing you were before. Add on a million battle scars from several thousand years of war, and any number of a Commander's traits can change or be lost over time.

Are units sapient? Hell no. They mindlessly perform the tasks directed to them by their Commanders. Their creation and purpose is to be sacrificed for the Comm's greater good. Having an intelligence would only detract from this, as they'd more likely develop their own vicious backstabbery to suit themselves.

Zordon is 120% correct. It is both foolhardy and just plain immature to think that Commanders wouldn't be sapient.

Ummmmm, typing error?

I still don't think that the commanders are as intelligent as you describe, but they might be a little wonky and quirky in a different manner.

Also, how would you create an AI (Or just really advanced computer) without first taking a look at the way the mind who is building it works? Our knowledge is based on nature and ourselves, so creating something truly alien might be beyond our capability's, and so a device created by us would possibly be constrained by that.

So I can't say I agree with the argument that because its a computer, it doesn't think the same as the person who built it.

Of course not. As their name suggests, Commanders demand an active intelligence to win wars. There is hardly a war where that isn't true. Their cannon fodder only needs to locate, point at, and shoot at the enemy, without question.

Your mind is an evolved computer igncom. There is nothing magical about organic matter.