A question to Uber (I hope this is the correct sub-forum)

Were do you fellows stand on the games as art debate? Do you want to be taken as artistes or are you fine with being game designers?

Games are art, pure and simple.

Artists use the tools they have available to put together things they see and know into something better than the sum of their parts.
Game developers do the same, they are just interactive parts.

(Moving to off-topic)

Sorry, I didn't know if this was off-topic, or a question Uber Entertainment discussion as it is directed towards the companies and its employees.

So, now don't think I'm knocking your achievements or MNC, but do you think MNC is a work of art?

I consider MNC a work of art, yes.

In a movie you take the actor's performances, the setting, the dialog, the plot, the music and everything else and you come out with what is generally thought to be a piece of art.

In a game you take all those things that make a movie but then add in the game play, the feel of the controls and all those interactive elements that make a game a game. I consider it a new form of art, but art nonetheless.


I moved it to off topic because it's not solely directed at Uber the company or MNC the game.

But I don't consider every movie a work of art, just a movie. I wouldn't call Rambo or Uncle Buck art, but I still enjoy them, Snakes on a Plane, now that is a work of art. I don't know, I'm just trying to understand why so many gamers are hung up on needing to be recognized as art/artists.


****In no way am I trying to troll anyone or say anything bad about Uber or video games, just trying to understand a point of view.

Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, photography, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics and even disciplines such as history and psychoanalysis analyze its relationship with humans and generations.

So are you saying you agree games are art? Because this definition surely makes it seem like it.

Not all art is good art.

Well said, still wouldn't say all music, films or books are art, and same with video games. Honestly, I'm not sure I could truly call any video game I've played art. Some are beautiful, and truly a work of passion, but I'm not sure I have seen something that is art, but they are getting close.

Honestly I would say Rockstar is one of the closest to producing artistic games. They have had no problem producing tragic story lines, but there is still a I don't know what keeping it from truly being art.

In my opinion there are many things that can be considered art although they don't look like it. Math can become art.

But it all depends on how you define art. I think many games are a work of art (maybe except sport games, that's probably more like slave labor... ). If you want to compare movies to games, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bODsYBsEq7o
Mafia (the first game), an ingame sequence that prepares the setting for a mission.

I don't know about you but I have seen a lot of movies that are sorely lacking by comparison. Sometimes art can be more subtle. However if a developer starts treating his game like a product instead of an work of art it shows. And the game will suck, big time.

I believe art makes you feel something.

Video games produce feelings at levels I can't get from any other medium. The feelings of competition, achievement, yearning and excitement come at levels in games that I can't get from movies, music, books or any other type of art.

Yup, the problem is that you can't jump into a Tarantino movie, grab a shotgun and show the guys how it's done.

Hope I'm not derailing the topic too much, but personally I've never played a game I consider to truly be a work of art.

I think games that are fun are at a distinct odd with games that are what some people would consider to be "actual" works of art.


I think Game Informer had an article about this very subject, bringing up the likes of Braid of BioShock as examples to how games can truly be art. I completely disagree. BioShock is definitely a good game that deserves a bit of praise and Braid is impressive if you've never watched something like the first three seasons Twilight Zone, but I wouldn't say either one of those games qualifies as "art" the way I view it.

I hate saying it, but the closest I've seen to video games being art...The original games created by now-defunct Cavia. Don't get me wrong, their games are GODAWFUL due to their poor gameplay mechanics and I haven't enjoyed playing a single one of them. However, I think they succeeded in coming close to creating interactive works of art...but not quite. They missed the whole "fun" aspect of designing video games by quite a longshot. But I think they made some decent progress towards making games art.

I've got to cite Drakengard and Nier as probably their best works. Both play like crap, but they've got characters, stories, music...and well pretty much everything but the gameplay and graphics are well above par for video games.


Now, other media that qualify as "art" in my vision?

Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS7CZIJVxFY
Drawn: http://beloved-creature.deviantart.com/gallery/
Literature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote
Comedy: http://www.pythonline.com/


There are certainly more forms of art than just those four, but I felt those would get the point across decently. Now, compared to those examples does anyone else think video games can really compare to other forms of art? I think the odds are severely stacked. It requires plenty of work to make great art, but just making a video game that's fun requires a monumental effort in and of itself; to make no mention of the things required to make it "art."

Also, props to the tool that just posted some copypasta from Wikipedia instead of contributing to the discussion. There's no way I could beat that :lol:

Oh yeah. Before someone takes that as me I have such better taste or whatever, I like plenty of things I don't consider to be art

Heavy Rain is a video game that is truly a work of art.

Also I have that issue of Game Informer and Mass Effect is also on the list.

Yeah, I've heard Heavy Rain is good. Did you ever play Indigo Prophecy, because a lot of people thought that game was really good, and I didn't care for the story at all, and I am leery that Heavy Rain is the same way. Mass Effect to me has the best music of any game on the 360 and the best ambiance, which I think heavily aids the feeling of it being a work of art.

No I haven't played Indigo Prophecy nor have I played Heavy Rain. I watched some broadcasts of HR on Justin.tv and I could not stop watching. The story is simply amazing and it has you always wanting to keep watching just to see what happens next.

And I agree with everything you said about Mass Effect. The music in that game is astonishing. I use to leave the game on in certain menus just to listen to the music. Then I found it all on Youtube.

I believe that too many people consider just visuals as art. Thus games like Braid and Limbo get represented as game art.
However, I believe that combination of visuals, sound, setting and game play is art. Some of it is not good, but some of it is so amazingly well done that it can't be art.

Bottom line, to me, it's truly an art form to put these things together. Anything that is an art form to put together has to be a piece of art, right?

There are "artsie" games, true. Games that focus on stunning visuals and plenty of games that evoke emotion or perspective.

I am some what ashamed that I cannot fully appreciate some of the old masters of the arts like Picasso because it doesn't make me feel anything. But "living" a story like Knights of the Old Republic, being immersed in the vastness of Shadow of the Colossus, feeling small by playing Passage. These are the hallmarks of what I feel art should do to you which has been left absent by observing "actual art" done by "actual artists" *cough*.

That said, I wholly agree with the sentiment expressed in this comic by penny arcade.

Sorry, but I can't help but point out the obvious bias there XD

:3

The work that went into creating MNC is definitely appreciated by all of us that play it and view the forums, but I still have a hard time labeling it as art. I think there are definitely parts of MNC that I can consider art, but not the game as a whole.

I guess it's kind of like the Final Fantasy games. The series is increasingly dull, but the cutscenes and music are often quite beautiful. As a whole I cannot consider them to be art, but the parts seem fine to me.




I actually thought of a game I truly believe is a work of art finally.

Ladies and gentleman, Rez.

How's that? I can't really think of anything I've seen or played before or since Rez that gave the same experience or anything even close. Sure there's plenty of rhythm/music games out there...But I don't know. I just don't think there's anything that compares to it.



Well, I guess all the inevitable disagreements about what is "art" can be explained away with one of two sayings regarding art...

A: 90% or more of all art is crap.
B: What "art" is is purely subjective.

Television and radio remind me that saying A is definitely true, everything else reminds me that saying B is very much true. For a brief period of time I was one of those crazy folks that think something being made by an independent studio or group automatically made it better than something meant specifically for mass consumption...It doesn't. 90% of independent stuff is still crap.

I agree with you, but I don't think Braid is a good example of this. From a purely visual aspect Braid was ~good~ and represented itself artfully. I mean the van gogh-ish swirls on the backgrounds sort of immediately referenced art.
But that game was artful for a lot of other reasons than visuals. It plays as though someone said 'I'm going to document the loss of the love of my life in a platformer.' It's in so many details of the game, even the game mechanics seem to be built to illustrate something. On one level, when a ring makes it's appearance it slows all time in proximity to it. That feeling happens in real life in real relationships, so being able to describe it in the language of a video game is part of what makes it art.

That said I believe production of video games is primarily done through the desire to communicate a feeling or to cause an emotional reaction, therefore they're art. The exceptions are games like 'Burger King Stealth Burger Nabber' - games conceived as a means to reach the gaming market. All others are art. Postal 2 included.

Also added bold text. You mean it's so good it must be art, right?

I don't think it follows so clearly. An artfully made spreadsheet is still a spreadsheet. A Dyson is still a vacuum. MNC though, is still art.