A Question on Art and Gameplay: Swirls

First off, loved the Stream.
Second, I'd like to ask a question about the art style that got buried in the Stream Thread that I feel deserves its own topic;

Neutrino, you said that the Pre-Vis video was perhaps a little "exaggerated" compared to what you've currently got going on the Planet Generator. There was a side-by-side comparison up showing the difference between the two and you commented that you're striving for the Pre-Vis to be your aim point. Though I'm fully aware of the rough/developer textures, I'm actually interested in the landmasses themselves...



Will you be bringing the "swirls" (shown here highlighted in red) towards the exaggerated state in this image, or are you staying with the "realistic" approach to terrain generation? It really was such an awesome style and it's a shame if it gets toned down for realisms sake.

I'll understand if actual gameplay is negatively impacted via these areas being useless to build on. But stylistically they were such an impactful technique it's a shame if they have to hit the cutting room floor. So Neutrino et al, are you pushing for these to be included?

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And to the regular forum Goer; What say you? Are the Swirls important for Uber to put into the game from both an Art and/or Gameplay perspective?

For myself I really enjoy the Swirls from an artistic perspective. My eyes send a lot of happy messages to my brain when I look at them

Gameplay-wise I'd also like to insist on the Swirls' inclusion. I like the idea of these being features that are complicated to fight across for land armies and naval forces alike. They add a natural "buffer" around some land-bound areas against attacks from the ocean. conversely the Swirl inlets allow (in some places) for naval units to penetrate deep into a landmass and bring their fire-power to bare in places that would normally be impossible.

Stylistically they're a feast for the eyes. Gameplay wise they're interesting features that you must plan around when warring on land or sea.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Pretty sure the swirls were still in there and they pointed them out.

Maybe we will get a swirl slider?

[Added more information to the First Post]

http://youtu.be/5Qyl7h7D1Q8?t=10m Specifically at the 10:00 mark Jon Mavor talks about the Swirls being exaggerated in the original video and at 10:20 the change to more "noise based" worlds when it comes to landmass generation.

I'd really REALLY like to get a comment from Uber about why they are moving towards more "realistic" landmass styles, rather than the original vision.

Is it too complicated? Is the engine capable of generating them?

Why move away from something that looks so cool, to something that looks so "ordinary".

As an aside, curves can play havoc on pathfinding (flow fields or no). Worth keeping in mind.

I understand that, sure... but the Style was a major contributing factor to my Pledge.

I'm not going to throw a massive hissy fit if Uber tells me they just can not be done... but I'd like to know the reasons why if that's not too much to ask.

I've played RTS on planets before, see Populous: The Beginning...

But I've never played on planets that had that much Style to them before... and I kind of want that

Perhaps all they need is a 'swirly factor' slider in the planet gen. That would keep everyone happy, no?

It would make me very, very happy.
in my pants

Edit: Other than pathfinding is there anything else major I'm overlooking when it comes to Swirls?

The swirls are cool. But if the swirls have a negative impact on the gameplay dynamics then I would say: Get rid off it.

If they do I completely agree. But we had no information in the Livesteam as to why they changed it, so I'm reaching out to the Design Team as well as the forum goers to ask why this shouldn't/couldn't be in the game.

If it shouldn't be there because it kills the engine somehow then that's fine... but if it doesn't... then where did the Swirls go?

Listening to Kevin Francis at 10:50 gives me a little hope when he says;

But unfortunately he seems to be talking about the "Painterly" look, rather than the actual landmass structure.

So what you're all saying is that you have no idea why they're not in the Planet Generator at the moment?

Gotcha.

For me its clear that the swirl are exaggerated in the concept video and must be tuned down in the game.

Why?

You say "must". What's the justification for that?

No the engine doesn't currently generate them but that doesn't mean they won't show up, they just haven't yet. Does that make sense?

Very much appreciated. Thank you for such a quick reply!

I'm also a big fan of the swirly look of the game visualization. Hopefully they make in to the game.

I'm no programmer but mathematically it should be possible to do swirls randomly. Perhaps one could use something like fractal-function:

That should give you random swirls at certain map-edges.

EDIT: sorry for image size

I have to say, I much prefer the swirl-less planets from the live stream.

+1 for swirl slider...

A swirl slider would indeed be great But a distinct look might be more valuable to the success of the game.

In any case, I think the great strength of procedural generation is that it allows people to play around with all sorts of factors and create beautiful battlefields exactly to their liking.

doing it via a swirl-slider would of course be the best solution.

Could you have a decal and or draw mode for world maps?