30 minute game. No juice buying.

I have never been so helpless against turrets as an assassin. All the turrets were level three. I used my crit-kins to down any new turrets before they could grow too strong. I made sure the enemy supports could not set up anywhere.

But there was only so much I could do. There were three assaults and they were all had charge 3. They had players that kept their eyes on every hint that I existed.Their assassin was competent as hell but that was not it. No it was the shear amount of bots. Our tank cleared bots like a god and I was doing an above average(for me)job of clearing bots. There were just too much.

Please, oh for the love of god please if you make a server, enable juice buying. It makes taking turrets down cleaner and enables either side to make significant moves.

or just don't make those weird non-standard servers

60 Minute server, no juice buying. WHY

Yeah, long games always just turn into Lv3 rockits everywhere because everyone ends up with SOOOO much money.

With juice buying off, if a game goes past ~15 minutes the only way it will end before overtime is if people give up.

With juice buying on, you can get some pretty crazy games where it's a bunch of juicers frantically trying to destroy Lv3 rockits faster than they can be thrown back up


I never join servers with juice buying off because the games so often become pure defense, with nothing happening until overtime. Static defenses should act as a buffer, not an impenetrable fortress.

I'd rather have players chain juicing than have everyone turtle up. Yes, some tweaks could be done, but this game works better with Juice buying than without.

what is so wrong with earning juice only and not buying it ?

I feel like playing anything but default breaks the game.

If you have ever been on a server with sniper class disabled and a decent heavy on the other team, that is extremely frustrating. yeah, the whole "assault is a hard counter" ****, but really, gunner has a higher dps gun from a longer range, and assault has less health. Tank has a far superior charge. It's really more balanced than people think, but when sniper is out of the equation, they can just wreak havok.

15 minute games are good because you have to buy skills early on (juice spam is boring and lame) and can't really afford to have juice and turrets. On a good game where I spam juice, I can keep both juice dispensers on cooldown, but I only have a buffer of 50-100$ when I do that, so I can't buy turrets as well.

On server without juice buying turrets are a bit beefier as what else do you spend cash on?

Juiced Gunner can still plow down 2 lvl3 turrets easy tho

oh man you'll have to build juice the old fashioned way which means staying alive longer than 15 seconds going kamikaze on each individual pro

Building juice manually is fine. There are certain methods that work better than others. For example, using your shurikens is inefficient on bots, but it builds juice. Blackjacks typically spawn juice pickups. Bam, 10% juice. Mop up a whole bot wave, receive 40-50% juice if you play it right.


Then you could use your $2000 not spent on juice on your own level 3 turrets? That's what your opponent did, and apparently judging by this topic, it worked.

The problem is that, as the game progresses late on, the other team has so much cash that once you've destroyed a Level 3 Rockit, they can just rebuild it in the time it takes you to build up another Juice.

Without Juice buying it becomes virtually impossible to get a lane open on these types of servers. Still, just change server if you don't like the ruleset.

Long games need juice to crack the defences and soak up some money. Either that or you need to be able to buy jackbots at $800 a bot. Short games don't need juice but juice doesn't make as big a difference in shorter games.

To be honest though I find the shorter 15 minute games (juice allowed) to be the most fun. You have to be doing really well to buy juice and it's constant action with very little time to turtle up.

As you say: don't like the ruleset then don't play on that server. There's no point having a game you don't enjoy.

Of course, destroying one level 3 rockit turret immediately puts them $1050 in debt if they want to bring up another one.

By simply staying alive to juice, you're preventing them from generating cash flow via your death. As long as you generate juice faster than they can make the money necessary to rebuild, you can force them into defenselessness. You'll appear to make no progress at first, but after 5-10 minutes of savage juice attacks in a row, random turrets will start being lower in level until there are none left.

Bonus points if you've managed to rack up enough money yourself to change class and fund a gunner. You can use your juice to take out 2-3 turrets at once in many situations.

I played in a 60-minute No juice buying server with you once. The only way we won is because I spammed a parade of Gapshots.

Yep, and then wait 45 minutes for overtime!

The problem is that level 3 rockets are far too good. More people would agree that juice needs a nerf it wasn't for the fact that level 3 turrets are nearly impossible to take down without a gunner or without juice.

IMO. Nerf level 3 rockets, buff level 3 lasers, nerf juice so that juice chaining isn't such a completely unstoppable force due to the amount of money lost trying to rebuild your defenses. Juice should be the force that lets your team get its foot in the door, not something that breaks down the door entirely and them proceeds to kick your dog and rape your tv. However getting a level 3 rocket turret removes a lot of the action of the game as it pretty much halts any forward momentum and often ends up making the game last until over time unless your team has a lot of juice and the enemy team doesn't have a support.

I think Lv3 rockits are really just way too CHEAP. When a game starts going long, people have so much money that they can just throw them up all over the place.

Make them expensive like they used to be (200/400/800 instead of 150/300/600) and then make Lazers more powerful like they used to be to fit the role of quick, cheap, and effective.

Whenever i end up on one of those long match servers i ALWAYS go gunner. Its a 100% guarantee that there are going to be 3+ 3.3 rockit turrets at all times and for gunners its heaven.

That sounds interesting, but the only 60-minute server I had in my favorites until it was taken down allowed juice buying and was run by a friend, so I think you're mistaken.

The thing is, in an ordinary 15-minute match, the type of match the game was built to revolve around, Level 3 rockits are prohibitively expensive in most situations allowing the creation of maybe 2-3 by a single top-scoring player over the course of an entire match, so unless you're feeding the enemy team kills they typically aren't too common if newer ones are consistently snuffed out like they should be. They shouldn't be changed just for the non-standard servers.

Precisely why I believe that they need to be nerfed, and possibly have a price DROP to compensate. They shouldn't be the unbreakable defense that prevents the losing team from making a comeback on a normal server. They also shouldn't require a juice to take out if you are anything but gunner.

I think simply dropping their health would do it. The damage is fine. Level 3 rockets are such a huge upgrade in terms of health.

Level 1 Rocket - 5000health
Level 2 Rocket - 8000health
Level 3 Rocket - 13000health

It wouldn't be so bad if there was more nubs on the map and building multiple types and weaker turrets was a more viable option. But because of the limited number of turrets you can have you HAVE to be as efficient as possible because any drop in efficiency is a fairly large one.

A level 3 Laser should be stronger than a level 1 Rocket because of the cost of a nub and inability to remove the laser, or further improve it, makes it cost significantly more in terms of viability. And a level 3 Rocket should be noticeably weaker than a level 3 Shave-Ice as Shave-Ice has no offensive capabilities and is intended to be a strictly utility/defensive blockade. (currently the shave ice at level 3 has 15000health, a noticeable jump from the 13000 of a level 3 rocket but not enough to truly make up for its inability to defend itself as a rocket turret can.)

I would probably enact a change along these lines:
Shave Ice - Leave alone, its perfect as is.
Long Shot - Leave Alone, it is situational but useful if placed correctly on certain maps. Perhaps increase its level 1 and 2 health but at level 3 it is fine. Something more like Level 1 - 1250, Level 2 - 2500 - Level 3 4000 (its current setup is 1000/2000/4000)
Rocket Turrets - Only needs a reduction to health and cost at level 3, levels 1 and 2 are fine. Level 3 rocket health reduced to 11000, upgrade cost reduced from 600 to 500.
Laser Blazer - complete remake needed. Needs to be better for the cost of the nub and time required to build it to level 3.