2 quick questions

tried search but apparently keywords are too "common"

1) is it true an assassin can 1-hit-kill any class with a gold armor from the back except the tank (even w/o gold armor)?

2) does the "Ninja" achievement not include grapple kills?

thx

If they have passive 3 yes. If passive 1, 2 then no. gunners and assaults can survive with gold armor

With a lunge to the back and then a back grapple a tank can be taken down with the katana. But that's no problem because assassins can be killed with mean looks.

thx guys

and yea even gold armor just helps my assassin slightly lol

really? I really dont think assassins are the paper class they are made out to be.. now SNIPERS.. they are made of paper.. assassins get huge dmg reduction during grapples, which is like giving snipers dmg reduction while zoomed in.. it honestly is.. and they have smokebomb dmg reduction, most of them run gold armor / silver armor and cloak to avoid walking into an ambush..

Also they can now face grapple any class under Gold armored gunner.. because they can combo the lunge damage (from connecting a lunge) into an instant grapple. Even a face grapple + Lunge dmg can kill a Gold armored Assault.

This is the one thing I think needs changing about assassin, I think if the hit misses than feel free to grapple, if the lunge hit connects however, it needs to put a 2 second cooldown on grapple.. because its screwing with the meta game.. Things like running Silver armored assault to survive face grapples, but now that doesnt work.

but yes, to answer your questions

Once they get lvl 3 passive, a sin can back grapple any class but tank, regardless of the build you are running.. People keep saying gold assaults can survive.. but that is not true. they die.. every time.. to a single back grapple... so do gunners.. only tanks live, and only if you have the passive skills..

does that include the lunge?

Snipers and assassin's have the same health.

I think assassin gets some passive health increases while the sniper doesn't unless I'm completely mis-interpreting the stats bar thats used when upgrading.

The Assasssin takes less fall-damage with the passive upgrade.

The smoke bomb damage reduction is 50% for like a second or so

Yes, but assassins are grappling, and grappling reduces all incoming damage by some very large amount while in the grapple.. they also have smokebomb which is a 50% dmg reduction for a couple seconds or so (more than enough to break line of site, if they lunge out of range, smokebomb, cloak away.. they are also faster MUCH faster and harder to hit..

its not about health its about protection and avoidance which they have in spades..

a silver amored gunner falls to an assaults gold ROF assault rifle in a clip + 2 bullets.. ive done this many many times.. but every time I start in on an assassin its smoke bombs away.. snipers die in less than a clip.. so, assassins should as well.. but if they arent cloaked they are usually effected by a dmg reduction of some sort, be it smokebomb or grappling, smokebomb dmg reduction starts as soon as the smoke appears.. you pretty much have to grapple them out of it, to kill them if they use it.. which means they have to be dumb enough to use it point blank, or low enough health for it not to factor.. and since they usually just finished a grapple, their health is not really that low to begin with.

I'm not starting a Sins are OP thread here, just stating facts.. they are by far one of the harder class's to kill when they are played properly. They are simple to kill if they are not played well.. which leads to plenty of people saying things like.. oh I shotgun assassins all the time.. well yeah thats what happens when bad sins try and face grapple good supports from stealth.. or when bad sins try and smokebomb right after a facegrapple..

but good ones know how to

Jump after a face grapple to avoid counter grapple, than lunge, than smoke bomb.. theres no much you can do if they do that.. I mean you lived, but so did they..

I do have a problem with the lunge dmg + face grapple mechanic, that is making it possible to kill a gold armored assault with a face grapple if timed correctly.. the only counter is to grapple them right after the lunge.. the problem is, lvl 3 charge wont work, because you can be grappled out of it, so their grapple that is coming right after lunge dmg, will actually pull you out of your charge.. so you have to use the 2ndary weapon grapple, and you do NOT have time to switch weapons.. so now I walk around with grenade launcher out, just to combat this, which hurts other aspects of my game, like snap targeting gunners.. and such..

if they just made the lunge work like this:

1) if lunge misses, you can grapple
2) if lunge hits, grapple is on cooldown for 1.5 seconds

that would help a lot.. right now its screwing with the meta game. IMO

no, the lunge is not needed, once they get passive 3, they can kill you regardless of lunge dmg, from what I am seeing..

A good gunner kills an assault without gold armor on. Pubs most people are bad.

Ok this will end up like most Assassin topics pretty soon, so to answer your second question before this blow up out of proportions, AFAIK grapple kills do not count towards the Ninja achievement, just regular slash kills.

Not sure about lunge kills, though.

LOL.. that is not true...

if the gunner sees him coming gunner wins, I dont often let gunners see me coming.. if the assault gets the drop on him, its over for the gunner unless he find cover.. and even than.. a bomb usually ends it.. Assault Rifle chews through gunners much faster than most gunners realize... until its too late.

lunge kills count.

again, its about who gets the drop on who..

Gunners murder tanks, sins, supports.. are countered by snipers, and have an even fight with assaults

a good gunner can mortar bad snipers, and fend off bad assaults.. but good snipers = boom headshot, and good assaults will get the drop on him when hes looking somewhere else... regardless of his skill level as a gunner..

not saying it doesnt work both ways.. if a good gunner gets the drop on an assault its over too.. problem is assault has charge to cover to help him.. and charge to finish to aid him in killing the gunner..

Gunners have a huge advantage at medium range though.. and can totaly deny the assaults approach if they know hes coming..

Do yourself a solid and ignore everything tinygod says, or at the very least take it with mountainous piles of salt. Once you learn about the game you'll quickly understand why.

To answer your initial question, depends.

Assassin does different damages depending on the weapon you're using to grapple with, and whether you grapple from the front or back.

With the knife:
400 damage from a front grapple
700 damage from a back grapple

With the katana (switches with the knife at passive lvl 3):
150 (per hit) x 3 (hits in the animation) = 450 damage from a front grapple
1000 damage from a back grapple

With the Shuriken Launcher:
100 damage per hit (not sure on the number of hits, but think it's x 4) for front grapple
175 damage per hit (same as above) for a back grapple

Different characters, meanwhile, have different healths:

Sniper and Assassin = 300
Support = 400 (+200 with passive lvl 2 = 600)
Assault = 500
Gunner = 700
Tank = 700 (+150 health for passive 2 and 3 = +300 health = 1000 health)

On top of that, armor endorsements add health:
+100 = Bronze
+200 = Silver
+300 = Gold

On top of that, a support can overheal you to 150% your total health.

So, without overheal, only Tank can survive a katana backstab if he has the appropriate armor/passive combination (at least passive lvl 3 and bronze armor, or Silver armor and passive lvl 2). A gunner with armor + Assault with gold armor + Support with lvl 2 passive and silver armor can survive a knife back grapple.

Don't forget, however, that good assassins tend to combo a lunge + back grapple.

Lunge does 134 damage with the knife (201 from the back) and 167 with the katana (~251 from the back). This will, off course, affect your ability to survive a lunge + back grapple, rendering the Tank with passive lvl 3 and gold armor endorsement the only character capable of survive a back katana lunge+back grapple without overheal.

For a more complete list of damage and such, you can use Den Kirson's excellent website for an easy to read source, or you can open your hostile.balance file if you want it straight from the source (with notepad, don't save anything).

how does any of that contradict what i said? I'm pretty sure it does not

passive 3 (katana) kills anything but tank (we werent discussing overheals)

I hate that, if say assassin/sin need tweaking I'm instantly a noob who knows nothing..

i'm not alone in my feelings on those class's

and I love how you passively right off the fact that if an assassin lunges to your back, the best you can hope for is to take 700 dmg

250+450, and thats if you manage to instantly turn to face him after being lunged..

more likely you are gonna take 1250 dmg.. they need to address the fact that lunge can hit than instant into a grapple..

Hint: Learn how to use the map and your own skills to avoid being lunge+grappled.

The sniper can instantly pull 1125 damage on an headshot, the gunner can get over 1000 DPS easily, close to 2000 with the right endorsements, Supports have a 2500 damage airstrike, Assaults do 2000 damage on an headcrab, Tanks can dish out a 300 damage charge+knockdown+stun making it impossible to avoid the 550 DPS gun + fire, and...did I forget anyone?

please tell me how to use map to avoid a lunge grapple.. come on man.. really.. thats not a valid point.. you arent gonna avoid lunged face grapples.. for 600, even if you put your back to walls.. and good assassins (very good ones) can actually face lunge you deal dmg, 180 instant turn, while right next to you and land a back grapple.. ive seen a few that can do this.. with about 80% success rate.. due to the way back grapples are registered.. when they do that, its a front attack, that ends up dealing 1150 dmg.. and can be done from stealth..

and all those class's require very specific situations

1) Sniper can deal 1125 dmg if he hits your head.. requires percise aim (in theory), but thats another topic being discussed at length

2) Assault head crab, requires very good aim and timing, its not as easy as just sticking somone

3) Gunner using very specific endorsements (assassin does NOT need endorsements) can deal near 2000 dps, if you are at close range, and dont move.. also you can see a gunner coming, and easily avoid them

4) Tank charge combo, again you can see him coming..

5) Support, again you can see him coming, it requires good aim to stick you, and even if stuck you have time to find cover, especially as a tank or assault or assassin who all have lunge type movements..

6) Assasssin: can deal 1200 dmg if he hits both from behind, and the aiming required is no where near as much as any listed above, it takes about as much aim as a charge does with an assault, which is not much, he can deal 700 even if he misses the face back grapple, and all of this can be done from stealth, and he can smoke bomb after wards, and during the grapple takes hugely reduced dmg..


the fact that lunge combos into grapple is a problem for me, and others.. some find no issue, I do.. but attacking my knowledge of the game or dismissing me as a noob, is not going to hide the fact that its a problem..

I have no problem with his back grapple dmg I find it balanced, i think there are problems with the way it registers a back grapple (if you are facing the same direction as the enemy and in grapple range its a back grapple for instance) but thats not a big factor as it is more glitchy than abusable.. but I really dont think uber intended lunges to deal dmg and than instantly grapple.. if they did, than I don't know what they were thinking.. because it can be preformed from stealth, at about 2 paces outside of audible range..

meaning you hear the cloak sound for about .3 seconds, before you are locked into a lunge/dmg/grapple combo.. you either have to get lucky and not be firing at all, hear the buzz/lunge and jump.. and pray.. even than the timing has to be near inhuman levels to avoid it.


this is only now starting to become more previlant, as I see more and more snipers learning the timing, which is really the only skill involved here.. learning the timing between hiting "r" and "mouse2".. I don't think this was intended, or forseen, since alot of the problem revolves around how quickly you can adjust which way you are looking, wiht a mouse compared to a controller (and the grapple to lunge thing, is just plain a bug imo)

comparing that to say the skill it takes to get a headshot, or a head crab.. is kind of an unfair comparison... even if they deal the same dmg..