What if micro pigs... are just shaved guinea pigs?

of course it is flippin cheating!

I take the view that attention is a resource in PA - so any program or script like that, to my mind, is equivalent to playing with a resource multiplier.

Actually it is cheating. An aimbot is cheating because it is using the information given to you and automates to task of pointing your gun at someones head for easy kills.

Using an automated method to gain an advantage that was not intended (the automation part that is) is cheating, and is a mod that when detected, should ban the user or at least not allow them to join official games.

All players have access to download hacks and mods that can make you have an unfair advantage. Does that just mean hackers are making use of there tools and that its ok?

That premise works only for games where all players are supposed to use the same, unmodified client as the skill in using that particular client is the primary measurement.

It doesn't work like this at all for games where client side mods are a core feature. E.g. compare the auto-cast plugins for WoW, which actually had such mods as an first class citizen.

Whether you release such mod or not is a moral question. That's unrelated to the question whether these mods should be allowed to be viable or not.

The issue isn't that such mods are going to exist. It's that these mods are allowed to provide such gains by the game engine, and that even without breaking any game mechanic rules like aimbots, wallhacks or visibility cheats would!

The premise for PA is, that if the server allows something, it isn't cheating, but an intended feature.

Not terribly different from microing, say, Hawks in TA making them many times more powerful. Didn't mind it there; don't see why I would mind it here. Micro intensive tactics are a tradeoff anyway. Takes a lot of attention away from the macro game, and as such it is a strategic decision whether you want to do this in a given situation. As long as it doesn't become a mandatory action, I think it's fine.

In my opinion its a cheat because if someone is using the normal game he can never win a game even if he is playing really good. Because its a cheat you can only ban it, maybe temporarily (ban for a week if you cheated).

If anyone here ever played rust you know what happens when there is no good punishments on cheating, that game started really well but quickly everyone stopped playing because of excessive cheating. If your not carefull websites like http://www.aimjunkies.com/ will sell cheats for the game. I was a mod on a rust server and there where over 30 cheaters banned in 1 day at the cheaterspeak (Server Rustiek for the dutch ppl reading this). After that day, obviously, a lot of players stopped playing there, the cheaters simply ruined the game. Eventually it even turned out that people bought very cheap 1 time use cheats from cheatsites to cheat 1 time only and in that session basicly ruined half the server for everyone. This is why i really think PA should be strict on this subject because there is a chance a big chunk of the community just leaves if there is no effective anti-cheat.

The sniper was like this a few builds back, dunno how it is in current patch.

There are always 2 options to prevent cheating:

• Client side "cheat detection software", like Punkbuster, VAC or alike. Mostly used for shoorters, but let me give a hint: It doesn't work. The server is sending out data which the user was never supposed to know about, and accepts not only legit player input, but arbitrary movement commands, which goes as far as not only allowing wallhacks and aimbots, but also even worse stuff like noclip and fly hacks.
• Server side filtering, what also PA does. The server is very strict about what it sends to each client and what it does not. It also validates every single input, and it doesn't take actual unit attribute updates, but only abstract commands.

With the second approach, there are no client side cheats, by definition. Either the server allows it, then it's a feature, or the server simply doesn't, in which case the cheat just won't work.

Disregard that I screwed up

Wrong. Something that a program allows to do but was not planned by developpers is not "a feature".
It's often a bug.
Or a conception overlook.
And using it against others when they don't know about it is certainly cheating.
Using it just for yourself is hacking.

Saying anything else is just hiding againt the facts and trying to have good conscience.

It *could* not be considered as cheating if every players in the game had this mod and some choosed to not use it for some reason.

The devs did not intend a feature like auto micro. It gives an advantage that you should not have. Effective micro is a skill and that mod removes that needed skill.
It is a unfair way of winning a game (not saying micro is the only way to win). It's a cheat and if you use it you need to be punished.

Regarding Micro: Within limits

It can give you a slight advantage early game. If you have the time to spare on that unit. The only unit that really works with is Dox-fights.
But once the game goes macro scale this simply stops happening. There is just no way to micro a bot army of 400 to have any advantage.

Regarding mods and cheating:
We really need to find a rule for that. Something like "not allowed mod opeartions" for Tournaments.
We already have one that is right on the Border: Auto Factory
It builds units with econ that would be normally wasted. It takes the need to pay attention to your factories/eco off you.
Granted in real games you propably have facturies on loop build anyway, so it is not that much of an issue.

We really need to discuss this in a seperate thread.

That's not hacking, that's exploitation of a bug. Not even necessarily cracking, leave alone hacking.

But this only goes for "features" which were not intended to be present - in this case, the mechanic is intended. And that's what makes it so dangerous, because dodging and messing with the procedural aiming algorithm is currently not considered an exploit.

I am using autofactory. Should I give back my tournament money?

Just an example. Dude, the UI inheirently allows automation. Auto wall turrets. Auto factory queue that even reacts to positive or negative eco.

Tbh this game has no exploit that doesn't simulate average proper gameplay for dummies, with the advantage of hands off to allow more time for player interaction like looking at map or microing battles.

if the game was fully automated, every player could micro two battles at once. If it was completely manual, good players could macro slightly and even weak players would be limited by build commands.

as such, I do not see it as cheating. Maybe its ambiguous, let your opponent know would be a damn decent courtesy. But it is not counterstrike circa 1990s, it is 2012 and this particular game supports rigid rules enforced by server while input is left to how a player wants to get'r'done.

Before hotkeys were ingame, should everyone using hotkeys return to clopse his tournament money? Because humanly no such APM is possible and effectively doubling orders per second effectively doubles the manpower, so a contestant without stands no chance against a contestant with.

Food for thought. When does artificial intellegence become self aware? Never? When it can react to injury? Some do react to injury. Are they already sentient? If they play chess, is it unfair?

Doublepost, but this is more of an exploit, messing with automatic aim which is FAR from controllable, if your opponent does it they take less damage and all you can do is watch in horror.

hacking, is tricking the server to send opponent Intel or something like sending the server inflated modified eco.

third party programs are when an automation plays a game. Using "hint" in spider solitaire is a third party program EXCEPT it is included, so doing a crossword puzzle via internet autosolve is using a third party program. All PA mods big or small that input ANYTHING normally a player action is a third party. Even the global power button onscreen mod is using a third party, the program isn't included and it compresses multiple player commands in a convinent location.

Then why are people not banned for using auto factory?

*I'm not saying auto factory shoudl be bannable. Just that there needs to be consistency when it comes to treating mods that automate micro.

I dont know what auto factory does but i can't imagine you can't just use infite build it should work just fine (i use it every single game)

It was before infinite build, and even now it builds ONLY when you have eco (so basically, you build eco and factories, it spends your eco, you just worry about the structural and then let it go on autopilot)

Since it controls the production of factories dependent of resources, and helps prevent wasted eco and assists in maintaining economy, it is an automation mod.

Automation mods exist, live with it.

If your opponents were not aware that you was using it, and/or were not using it themself, it smells cheating.
It's not because something is possible that we should do it.

As long as ALL the player ingame are aware of all parameters and use the same configuration, i'm okay with it.
But as soon as one opponent is not aware of something, or not using the same configuration, then there is some unfair advantage that should be sanctionned.

Point.

All the talk about sentient IA, counterstrike or hotkey is garbage words to make you feel comfortable with your choice.

Edit : fat fingers made me post before finishing >_<