Ideas on how to balance the sniper

and if they post a screen or a video? You will simply say well that wasnt me you were playing those were scrubs.

Just throwing it out there but seeing mines becomes no-brain once you actually played Sniper.

You hear them, you know where they are going to be. If you still spring them something is up with you, not the trap.

Assaults are a pretty effective counter to Sniper, get a good assault and we'll talk (Shoutout to OD once again)

qft, as an assault i've stomped a number of snipers. course **** happens and they own me, which is typically why i go for them in the first place

and this one:

its ignorant posts like these that make this thread go in circles.

@ st0nedpenguin, what do you consider "a bit of experience"

@ BroTranquilty,
1)can a sniper start the game out with no cash spent on skills/abilities and still nail head shots for one-hit-KO's
2)is using a rifle, especially in this game, super easy? i think it is. fast ROF + no recoil + no bullet drop (could be wrong about the drop, but i have not noticed it yet) + the basic sniping skills you may have gained from other games = super easy class to learn and be very good at.

a few things about me:

*i am fairly new to the game, purchased it when steam put it up for grabs with that special on the 24th of Jan.
*played BFH's for a good while, its a 3rd person shooter with some common ground with MNC, sniping in BFH was easy, but MNC takes easy to a whole new level.
*the main class i enjoy playing in MNC is gunner, i love the mortar gun and the slams, its really fun, but when the other side has a sniper with at least 2 brain cells enters the game on the other side, it squeezes all the fun out of it for me.
*other classes I enjoy playing are support and assault, ive played sniper a good few rounds just to remind myself that I am not crazy and sniper is just way easy.
*not into the assassin class but i dont mind seeing them on the battlefield, even if they wreck the place, because it takes more than a point and a click while keeping the camp fire nice and cozy.
*not really into tank class yet, but i do plan on learning it more/mastering it at some point.

but even with all the arguments from both sides, biased or not, i do not think any of us will convince any of us of anything.

*those of you that say sniping is hard......must be playing on some real POS PC's

*those of you who say that sniper is balanced "cause you can killz dem"...are not seeing the entire picture, if you are making it your goal to kill that sniper on the other side of the map, you have your work cut out for you, you need to watch the bots, the other players, your teammates and all the other things that factor into the situation. you cant just decide "ima take out that lame sniper now" and have it be just that easy. well if you are playing against total morons, then ya, it could be that easy, but chances are, there are a few other variables you will need to consider when drawing out that grand ol plan of yours.

*those of you who say, "you are new, your opinions do not matter, learn to play"....well answer me this: Q-> isnt sniper pretty much the same in every other shooter game? im pretty sure the basics of the sniper role has been played by 99% of us all here from one game or another, sure there are new elements MNC brings, but the learning curve was probably learned from another game.

a fulled upgraded sniper who has any kind of decent aiming is indeed a bit too much atm for your average MNC player unless you are playing a glass cannon yourself (sin or sniper)

those of you who bring the "i played longer" argument to the table should be ashamed of yourselves. you are not smarter than anyone else here, you are not better than anyone else here, .....you just "played longer"
while it may be true you picked up a few things here and there that some of us newer players have not picked up on yet, but that has nothing to do with just how easy sniper rifle is to use and how easy headshots are to get on mediums and heavies and other snipers who are "scoped in"

I have countered many snipers as assault.. like I said Hover + Bomb = win against most..

but there have been a few snipers ive met who were amazing and I see NO holes in their defenses.. that is the issue.

A decent sniper and a decent assault assault will win

but an amazing sniper and an amazing assault, I just dont see the assault having the tools to counter quick scoped head shots.. Maybe if he had some ability that launched him into the air that WASNT his bomb so he could get over their head and bomb them..

Hi, I'm an assault player who hovers around 100 on the crossfire cash ladder and 35 on kills (ladder name "BabelFish".) My average pub game is something around 35:3 K.

Most snipers give me no trouble at all. Traps are no problem, and the AR/Bombs/Charge tend to kill them before they even know I'm there. The competent snipers are dangerous but can be dealt with via back paths and playing smart.

Then there's that 5% of snipers who are gods of the battlefield. I stick my head out for a split second and they shoot me down. I try to hover over their traps and they headshot me out of mid air. I try to hide behind cover and they flush me out with flack. They control a HUGE swath of the map and singlehandedly dominate the game.

Bad snipers are dead weight, mediocre snipers are annoying but balanced, the best snipers project an instant-death field the likes of which no other class can even get close to touching.

Good assault can take out a sniper without even entering their line of sight. Saying assault doesn't have the tools to deal with sniper is simply ignorant and shows your inexperience.

See, that's the major difference between the good snipers and the best snipers. The good ones let you get into that position, the best don't.

Sure, there are a couple maps where the sniper's boned, he can't prevent you from getting close to him outside his LoS. But many of the maps are designed such that you can't get close to him without his seeing you.

I'll agree that a sniper with no health endorsement is easy pickings for a good assault, but I have yet to run into an amazing sniper without at least silver health endorsement. If he gets hit by two bombs in a row without regenerating he's exceedingly foolish.

The Assault only needs to be in a certain position to deny a Sniper on most maps - I wrote the cheat-sheed to Sniper counter in this thread earlier.

If you choose to ignore that it's your loss.

Classes are fast in this game, theres plenty of cover and LoS breakers, as for the whole 'seethrough walls is op for snipers' busisness, just try to barein mind that any sniper who stands still behind one of those walls is prime lungefacegrapple bait.

Plus, a very very good point that hasnt been mentioned yet, is that, in BFH, TF2, CSS or GA standing behind cover for 5 seconds dosent give you full health as it does in this game, body shots count for next to nothing in this game if you dont get a kill, how fast can a tank regain health just by deploying in cover for a couple of seconds...


@Taste, you were a pretty good sniper back in bfh, and yes, certain aspects of mnc's sniping is easier, but there are also harder aspects in mnc and tbh your experience in bfh does carry over very nicely, so the apparent OPness of of sniper when your playing may be simply due to nice snap aiming skills learnt from bfh.

This god this 100xs this.

This is all most of us are saying..

an extremely good sniper > an extremely good anything else.. they have no true counter class, only class's that can exploit flaws that the PLAYER MAKES..

they need a GAME MECHANISM that makes them less lethal at close range.. I mean why even use SMG? if you can quick scope with 90% or greater accuracy, as I have seen some snipers do, the SMG is pointless..

That is why the SMG gets your best friend during overtime - surely.

Weapons are situational, backpedalling from those lunging maniacs? SMG.

Facing close range Assaults that know a thing about dodging? SMG.

Assassin or Assault bomb/smoke-jumping away? SMG / SR (depending on angle)

Those generic statements work just as well in the other direction so either be very specific if you want to adress issues or stop trying.

I think we're misunderstanding eachother. MOST snipers I have no problem with. Heck sniper would be the LAST class I would suggest a new player to try.

Most snipers I utterly dominate as an assault, but I've started to find a few who demolish entire teams like nobody's business. It's only the trend I see among the top couple % I'm worried about.

so while juiced or if you cant make quick scopes.. got cha

That's kinda the point of being a good player, isn't it?

No, I'm going on the defensive, because you're going on the offensive.

Yeah I'll go with that too.
See, I'm listening to your arguments and agreeing if I'm wrong - do you have to be constantly insulting my playing ability?

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Have you never ever played a game, where people can quick scope with Sniper Rifles?
It becomes a completely dominating strategy, that is ridiculous to play against.

Look, I shouldn't be forced to do your research for you, but here are a few examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxYFmpkKXpI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPtl0rrJbc (misses first shot)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HwRY6TwUy4 (Doesn't go for headshots as much sadly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIKFTn4RFVQ (IIRC this footage was taken after a "quickscoping nerf" which added 200ms before you could headshot)

Now, the Sniper Rifles in these clips, bolt action.
The MNC Sniper Rifle is not, it has a faster fire speed than the majority of these Sniper Rifles, lossless accuracy, etc. It is much better.
What do you think will happen with the MNC Sniper?
If this doesn't show you what's in store - I think we're done here.

Here's another discrepancy - you're pitting "good" Assaults and Gunners against a Sniper - but, what kind of Sniper?

Is it one that can reliably score headshots?
Is it one that can get behind adequate cover and deal with the scenario from there?

Because theoretically? A competent Sniper can actually dodge a few grenades, and then quickscope an Assault/Gunner - even when on the move.

There's the thing - you're a good Sniper on PC after something like 2 weeks of release (6 weeks if you had the beta) - the only way to go is up.
Soon, crazy headshots and quickscopes won't be considered "**** happens".

Well, I'm glad you understand that - that's helpful.
So, balance is skill-independant yes?
It means it's measured from peak human skill - as that's taking the class' maximum human potential. Essentially, moving the skill level from your average pubs to the highest possible human level, eliminates skill as a variable.

What I'm saying is - that a Sniper approaching peak skill level will dominate any other class at their peak level.

It won't be a case of being better - the match-up is set in stone, in most circumstances.

Yeah, my theory is that you can't eliminate random variables. Ever.
Which is, you know, mathematically proven.

Example
ab < cb
Where a and c are random numbers in between 0 and 10.

Eliminate a and c for me please. ( / Solve for B)

That said, I'm gunna throw it out there, you seem to be thinking I have issues with all Snipers... I may have given the wrong idea - but it's mainly the good ones that are really problematic for me.

I actually addressed the whole railgun is hitscan thing in the point below - but I suppose you just can't help yourself with the insults can you?

Anyway, especially with grenades - the distance you have to move to avoid the point of contact is offset by travel distance... though... that's assuming the Assault's always dead on.

Mortars are more of a Z-Direction movement. Snipers should be tossing it up versus Gunners anyway?

I though I'd already drummed this into your head - but the amount of effectiveness gained by Snipers getting better will dwarf the effectiveness gained by other classes.
That's a fundamental trait of skill ceilings with regard to balance.

If you don't agree, please explain how the Sniper has an equal skill ceiling to that of other classes.

That's changing the subject a bit don't you think?
I was just explaining how Snipers wouldn't get gimped by a bolt-action change or nerf to Rate of Fire (which is the same thing).

I suppose you don't have a counter argument for that?

Addressed previously... so many times...

Can't see why not.
We have all the time in the world.

lol, true Grimbar style.
"Screw balance! As long as I'm the one who's always dominating!"

Why isn't this thread locked yet? It's getting nowhere and the same things keep being repeated over and over without ever coming to a conclusion everyone can agree on...

This is getting ridiculous. :|

Why would they lock it, it all provides valuable information on peoples feelings and opinions, as well as the potential to unearth a few gems that could be implemented later.

Not to mention the enjoyment people take from argueing these points even if it is going round and round, theres no flame war or abuse, nobody is being compared to hitler, it seems like an extremely good debate to leave running and open...

Fixed that for you

Let's not disprove uncle's post right above yours and descend into personal attacks, eh?