Ideas on how to balance the sniper

There is so much i could argue about with you nick, but ill keep it minimal to stop this thread turning into a rage fest.

Listen to what you're saying, youd probly lose against grimbar 20-1, yet you will stomp kids in pub. So what you are saying is that you will lose to a good sniper, yet you still own people in pub without effort. This game has been out for 2 weeks, so yes there will be terrible players that get owned by you still.

You also said "I find MNC sniping easy as hell, and not much different from the games at which I was bad" which just proves my point more. Im guessing the other games you were bad at sniping didnt just come out? am i right?

All of this is countered by a mine.

sad thing is, i could just copy and paste another post in this thread here. but let me just say it again differently (its what this thread is completely made of anyhow, same complaints different curse words)

you cant nerf things based on low level play. it doesnt work. it doesnt work. did i say that twice on accident? no. it doesnt work. there, i said it a third time, but thats not all... IT DOESNT WORK.

if you nerf it for low level play, then a good kid will just play an inherently better class (one with a higher skill cap, but once mastered still does better). they will be able to beat every other class beause the other classes were nerfed so none of them beat it, no counter class or nothing, just straight up "sagat". people will be back here afterwards, COMPLAINING.

if the classes are nerfed so one class can be played better than any other one, even if a noob plays against a experienced player and still wins, then the game wont work EVEN if the game looks balanced to newbies.

please dont make us go through that cycle. i hate to ask you to go play another game, but if you cant learn to beat the sniper using the tactics everyone talks about, please do. i wish you could play this one, but if it means breaking the game to make it better for you, id rather it not happen.

if you need to spread the gap so its not an inherently easy class (that is such a lame and ridiculous arguement, the gunner and assault are so much easier, but lets go with it), then give it a harder time to fire. dont make it ridiculously weaker, making it unable to kill pros or bots or turrets, making it worthless, making other classes get by without a counter (like the gunner and assassin), making the other classes also not function right.

im just saying, a nerf is ok. but if you take rock out of rock-paper-scissors, then your have the retard game. SCISSORS! I WIN! scissors dont hafta worry about rock, he was nerfed, so scissors becomes overpowered, then paper, pretty soon everyone is nerfed and back to square one. small nerfs when needed only please, is all im saying.

From a Gunner POV: Snipers are ok. Of course they are the counter to us, so don't expect to destroy them every match. The key is just to adapt, and play carefully. Even though I admit 2 Snipers in the opposite team can be a pain sometimes... Especially when no one in my team takes care of them :-/

I have never played Sniper in Crossfire, but the feeling I have is that a lot of new players seem to be really decent with it. Which does not mean they are OP.

Anyways, I have the perfect counter against them: I play Assault

if you dont feel like going to my counter topic, then listen to me. come back here and tell me the <whateverclass> is overpowered after you:

play assault against a team of snipers, by just spamming grenades at the end of their range. they will blow up automatically, i have gotten a triple on a sniper cluster doing this because there is no way to avoid it, the sniper simply cant outrun the splash damage of the second grenade, already barreling through the air at them, by time they realise the first grenade hit.

play gunner against tanks. the tank is MOST effective at twice arms length, the gunner KILLS the tanks at that range and slightly farther. tanks can try to product nade and rail all they like, they still cant even kill turrets as fast as a mortar that way either.

play tank against assassin. walk beside your bots. deathblossom every time you hear or see an assassin, and do it until they die or leave. deathblossom when you come to enemy bots. charge with jetgun and product nade when you get to a turret. that is all.

play sniper against gunners. gunners shouldnt be able to make it the full map being as big of a target as they are. gunners also cant push bots well, while the sniper can push bots across the map without ever leaving the base sometimes.

play assassin against supports. supports escorting a bot lane can be assassinated fairly easy through many means (grapple, ejector, ect). their firebases are breakable with juice-slash or smokebomb-slash, their turrets at base are breakable with the same tactics. assassins can knock down a team of turtles or pushers if they dont have the proper armor or range.

play support against the assault. he sucks at pushing bots or breaking bases, the support is good at pushing bots and making bases. no assault can go against a botwave or turret that has a support behind it. the support actually is better than the assault at breaking turrets, the supports dont even have to turtle to win.

Assault's grenade launcher tears apart any bot wave, support or not.

BroTranq needs to calm himself down.

Also... did he really say assaults suck at pushing bots? AND breaking bases?

Pretty much anyone can get freak scores. It happens. Maybe the teams were unbalanced. Maybe you were just on fire. One freak score is hardly any evidence of anything.

As for, good scores as a mediocre sniper, you know what they say, "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king". Mediocre is about 2 qualitative jumps above what most people in this game are.

Remember, this is the game where you have assassin players CONSTANTLY trying to face grapple tanks, dying, then doing it the **** again... I once saw someone try this, I **** you not, for an entire bloody 30 minutes game, while getting constantly maimed by the Tank (obviously), and they just kept coming back... And calling the Tank a hacker for surviving it and then, obviously, punishing them with an insta-kill charge.

If you have the slightest idea of how the classes work, you're already head and shoulders above your average player. They are THAT terrible.

It wasn't an insult, it was a statement of fact based on the knowledge you demonstrated, which was very little.

I may never have seen you cook, but if we're talking about cooking and you tell me you don't know how to fry something, I'm going to assert you're a terrible cook based on said knowledge...

They also have jetpacks, skills, long range weapons and the maps are different. All of which matter. A lot.

Here's the problem with your theory: Sniper doesn't dominate pubs (or comp) any more than any other class. I've seen all classes absolutely dominate a match. Hell, I've done it myself, with all classes. It's mostly about the players (the ones using the class, and the ones he's fighting against).

If it's true you will find matches with snipers going insane scores like 43/2, you'll also find rooms with assaults or gunners, or tanks doing similar scores. Hell, the current #1 rank is Statement, who mains assault...

Which tends to just result in frustration more than anything. That said, I still find it easier to quickscope in TF2. I find the transition from "normal" to "scoped" is more seamless and far less spatially disorienting.

Which is easily countered by not walking over it or exploding it before hand. Tanks, Assaults and Gunners all have jetpacks to fly over them. Tanks, Assaults and Assassins can charge/lunge over them to get to to you. All classes have a way to explode them.

@Waddle Waddle: Pretty obvious he doesn't know how to play assault. Or at least never discovered the bomb skill and the grenade launcher.

Most, if not all of the players arguing against sniper nerfs here dominate the same speds you're dominating, only while playing any class.

Most of us also don't have any issues playing against snipers, either.

This is all hinting at one thing: The problem is you.

Yup.

Hey guys, I'd like to out myself as another person who feels somewhat competent at this game, but who has a large problem with good Snipers. Don't hate meee.

I mainly play Assault, though I do dabble in every class - and so I make it my duty to ensure that Snipers aren't annihilating our team.
It's not my primary goal - but it's definitely up there.

I find that the amount of effort it can take to get the correct distance and angle to Grenade a Sniper, the Sniper has good enough warning to move, assuming they're halfway aware and competent. I do know of many map-specific angles where I can grenade common Sniper spots, but most competent Snipers I play against avoid them nowadays, and at the first sign of trouble, get into a safe spot to recover their lost health.

Similarly, I try to approach them - as often Assaults are able to stand away from their Ice Traps, but still get quick KOs with the Assault Rifle. I find that again, against competent Snipers, this either invites them to kill me with 2-3 quick Sniper shots as I approach, or, as it's easy to see players approaching you, just run off to fight another day.
I also find that as Snipers often hang back behind their team - I will often be killed by their teammates while approaching, while trying to kill the Sniper, or, after I have successfully killed the Sniper.

Recently I have also noted that many Snipers are getting competent at Snap Shots - so they can headshot players with tiny amounts of warning - I don't think aspect of Snipers should be nerfed - if they can perform such maneuvers successfully, good for them, but, it's making countering them even more difficult.

But even if I do kill the Sniper and escape - what then? I can go and try to complete other objectives that I set for myself - but after maybe 20 seconds, I'll notice my team being killed by the Sniper again, and I have to make the same risky rush out to take care of him.

I do adore the features such as short respawns, open maps, and see-through glass - but they do really help a good Sniper.

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The next point I'd like to make is that many people defending the Sniper here have made arguments and recommendations on how to kills snipers that are, well - quite silly.

I have seen recommendations such as:
- Go Sniper to counter him (should someone really be forced to play a class, to counter itself? Doesn't that say more about the Sniper's balance than I ever could?)
- Don't go into his field of vision (it's very easy for Snipers to cover over half of a map. Should we sit in spawn too? Again, this really says something about Snipers. )
- Get 2 Assassins to gank him (Because two assassins just to kill one player is completely reasonable and balanced - and, even then, as a Sniper I can easily escape 2 assassins... and hold on, shouldn't the Assassins be killing bots?)
- Just Grenade/Mortar him (As said, it's a lot of effort and time, which is easily escapable by a competent Sniper if he doesn't get a couple of shots on you first)
- Get into close range (Depending on the skill of the enemy team, and the awareness of the Sniper, this can be a gamble)

All of these points assume that the Snipers and its team are morons.

Meanwhile, Snipers can easy kill each class in just a second or so with Bodyshots with Gold/Silver Rate of Fire.

Throw in all the other awesome perks of being a Sniper (Ice Traps for easy kills, area denial via Flak, good money/juice farming, good Grapple, able to kill Jackbot XLs easily, fair movement speed) and it's kinda... well... you know the two letters I'm looking for.

The only real way I have been able to shut down good Snipers is by playing very aggressively and dominating their team for map control - and trying to lock them inside their base. Though this would depend on their team's ability to resist my team's pushes - and as we're all very wary of the Sniper - it shouldn't be too hard right?

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So, that's my position on Snipers - I'm finding that with their great Rate of Fire, Pinpoint Accuracy, and Zoning Advantage (they fight outside other's effective ranges) - they're dangerous in the hands of anyone with fair aim and half a brain. You don't even *have* to go for Headshots on most classes - just body shots can net easy kills with great RoF, or at least get a class to flee for the hills.

Meanwhile, to counter them - each class has to put themselves in great danger from both the Sniper itself, and its team. They often require a fair amount of time - and there is no real surefire way to counter the Sniper depending on circumstances. Most attacks can be nullified by a Sniper moving further away, or dropping to a lower height level.

The Effort vs. Effort ratio sucks.
I personally would like to see the Sniper Rifle become bolt action.

but yet you agree with me in a previous post.

since you lack the brain power to understand, ill explain it further.

small maps + impenetrable walls + walls that are see through = sniper advantage

explosive shot give snipers an aoe. and last time i checked aoe is not precision. on top of that the whole point of being a sniper is precision.

so with all your (obvious)intellectual dominance can you tell me how both of these arent a clear advantage to snipers.

I hardly get killed at explosive shots. Maybe that's because I'm a cautious player. If you suggest that explosive damage should do less, then maybe I could agree.

Still, I think some of you guys are trolling thinking something should be REMOVED.

yes i am suggesting that explosive shot be removed and replaced with a different passive that better suites the sniper archetype

without any extensive thought on the issue i would say something along the lines of magnum ammo that provides knockback or something similar.

I honestly don't think explosive shots are the issue.
Might just be me though.

i agree. its not the real problem. but people want to balance sniper. and the only thing that could even be changed is explosive shot. its the only thing that isnt completely vanilla sniper

i do believe however that when uber releases more maps, they should look into map size and placement of the barriers as these are the reasons that sniper has the most advantage in this game

I think Uber did say that they were open to the idea of making the Sniper Rifle Bolt Action.
I think that would balance it against players (and enforce skill based headshots rather than constant body shots)... and then you could just make Explosive shot add damage vs. bots and turrets so no DPS is lost there.

I don't want to see changes to the Sniper's main abilities as currently, he is a class who can carry out game objectives, like destroying turrets, bots and the moneyball.
Getting rid of explosive shot would greatly affect his ability to do some of these things, while it, in my opinion, has little impact on the problem - which is Sniper versus Pro and not Sniper versus bot/turret.

Gotta solve the actual problem, not just tweak random numbers and label it "Nerfed"

If they get out of the spot congratulations, you've stopped them harassing your team. Sure you didn't get a kill marker, but you've helped your team just the same. If they're sitting out, they're not killing people or bots.

I know maps in this game aren't very big, but they're not a bathroom stall either. You have more than one way to get to a place, and I honestly can't remember a good sniper spot (i.e.: one from which the sniper can cover useful spots and not just shoot a wall or a tiny corner) where you have no way to flank the sniper if need be.

When people say "get closer" we don't mean "run up to his face". That results in the aforementioned, and rather predictable, brain piercing.

And... where is your team?

Generally speaking everytime that has happened to me it's because I'm generally the only one actually trying to kill the sniper or move the team forward, with the rest of my "team" content with running around like headless, and constantly dying and respawning, chicken.

This isn't really different than trying to kill someone covered by a firebase or groups of more than 1 decent players covering each other without help.

Even so, you can have an assassin or a sniper take them out.

Gonna happen to every class. As people play more, they learn more, become better players.

Like... Ya know...every other class? Snipers don't have inherently shorter respawn times. Alternatively you can just hold that ground, something assaults are very good at. You give your team a place to move forward to, and you stop the sniper from returning to his perch.

Win-win.

It's a legitimate tactic and it's valid for every class. ANY class can be countered by itself. If you're out of ideas, use whatever the enemy is using... Then it comes down to skill.

If a sniper is covering half the map you use the other half to get to him, kill him, and take his place... This seems pretty straight forward.

Why 2 of them? One good one is enough.

And the whole "Assassins should only be killing bots!" thing is a myth. It's something they SHOULD be doing, but not exclusively. Feel free to disregard anyone that tells you otherwise.

RoF Endorsements. You'll be able to shoot at least as fast as the sniper (if not faster), and do it from behind or around cover from where the sniper can't shoot you. At medium/close range, assaults can very easily lob bombs over barriers or around corners for a quick kill.

Not really a gamble. You just gotta be better than the sniper... Same way he has to be better than you to beat you... And you have the advantage.

No, they assume the people trying to kill them and their respective teams aren't morons. I know that it's a very misguided assumption, but we can't debate balance on any lesser grounds.

In short I get the feeling that you either don't know the maps very well yet, or that you're suffering from "HST syndrome". "Having a Stupid Team". That's when your team either seems more concerned with sitting around camping their spawn than to actually push, or is just too pathetically weak to do so. Either ways you're gonna lose, you're gonna die a lot, and that sniper won't be any more or less dangerous than an equally good gunner, tank, support, assault or assassin. Just more annoying to die to.

While I think that explosive shot is important to the sniper class as a whole. Sometimes things DO need to be removed if you want to balance a game. Sometimes its simply impossible to balance if a specific factor is found to be too difficult to fix. This doesn't apply to this situation, but it is a fact of balancing ANY game. It doesn't typically happen once a game has gone gold, but it has happened occasionally.

I think removing the explosion on friendlies, and possibly lowering the AOE of the explosion itself would probably improve the situation.

Honestly I feel like the sniper needs some tweaks, but not all of them should be nerfs. His flak grenade could do with a damage boost imo.

I know of very few spots that can be successfully invaded without an aware Sniper being able to react.

Snipers often sit closer to the enemy's base than yours, and so it's likely that you'll run into more of their teammates at their base than yours.

Though the amount that can be achieved with reliable quick scopes and snap shots is far more than what can be achieved with perfect Assault Rifle aim, for example.

Even if I mastered headcrabbing people, I wouldn't be nearly as successful with it as a Sniper who has mastered quick scoping. The use of the maneuvers isn't equal - I can only throw a bomb once every 20-30 seconds - while Snipers can quickscope someone every 0.5 seconds or so.

Damn why didn't I think of killing the Sniper?
...

As a Sniper I have few issues dodging grenades and mortars, even after the first has hit. Might be because I do my best to know immediately when an Assault/Gunner is targeting me.

Do I?
Quickscoping can factor in a lot here.
Same with those Ice Traps.

That, or the Sniper needs a legitimate nerf of course - which, considering how quickly skill's developing, I wouldn't be surprised if it were to happen soon.

I note you didn't respond to the key arguments that were just that the Sniper can easily kill any class within seconds from outside their range with just Bodyshots - and that the effort required to reach and kill a Sniper is far removed from the effort it takes for them to kill you. (And so they're more likely to remove you from play by killing you/threatening you than you killing/threatening them)

I dunno, I might not have really drawn enough attention to them - but, I was kinda hoping that if anyone was to address any of my points, it'd be those.