What do you guys think about this idea (scoreboard changes)

<WallOfText>

Ok, one major complaint I see on the forums is that Most PUG Players don't do their job. This leads to a lot of problem threads. For instance My old thread about Assassins being OP.. that was the result of me having never played as one during an organized match.. Once I did, I got face stomped by Assaults and Snipers all day.. I actually HAD to farm bots and push bases, couldnt hunt pros at all.. Well this got me thinking, organized matches force players to play their class's correctly, and when played correctly all classes are reasonably balanced and the game is MUCH MORE FUN. However in random servers and PUGS this is NOT THE CASE.

This leads to a HUGE difference in amount of FUN and SKILL between organized teams and Pick Up Groups. I think the 2 biggest factors that cause this game to get Hugely lopsided in Random Servers are as follows.

1) Lack of communication:

Most organized groups use VENT, the current mic system seems a little wonky, and I hardly EVER hear anyone on it, I think in 20 games I heard 2 people.. thats pretty bad. now again this is player base, but what can you do? Ship a head set with the game, require it to play? I Think the only thing to do here is to clean up the mic a bit and maybe make TYPING a bit easier (allow us to type while dead, and make the chat more prodominant on the screen, IE: Easier to see)

2) Score-Board Tunnel Vision:

A lot of new players and PUG goers, come from games like Call of Duty, Halo, Counter-Strike etc.. Teamplay exists there, but it is NOT whoely needed to be succesfull. You can actually CARRY a team in those games, if you are good enough.. Mostly because its JUST about killing other players, there are no BOTS to push or STOP.

If the moneyball had no shields, this would be true here as well, this is what makes shields brilliant, you have to work as a team to get bots to the enemy base, so that you can actually hurt it. Great dynamic in the game.

However again, a TON of players get Score-board tunnel vision, they only care about their kill death ratio.. Why? Well because its what you see on the score-board at the end, its braggin rights, its a LOOK AT ME IM SPECIAL column.

I say GET RID OF IT (or atleast give it a back seat to more important stats).

ADD THE FOLLOWING COLUMNS:

1) Bots Killed
2) Stuctures Killed
3) Bots Built (by player, IE: hitting the button for 100)
4) Turrets Built
5) Damage done to MoneyBall (this is a big one, as it will most likely become the NEW bragin rights, while actually encouraging objective based play)[/u]

If we can get this working (and the mic system / chat system improve) I think we will see a drastic climb in objective accomplishment during matches, an over all improvment to the quality of our games, and perhaps even MORE players forming organized groups. We don't all have 100 steam friends.. I play TF2 with 10 people, and we love playing together.. I met all 10 in random matches across random servers.. but TF2 has great chat/mic and it was easy to meet someone and become friends.. That led to one of them eventually buying a server, and we play there now together.. And the 10 of us donate so its pretty cheap for the amount of fun we have.

I think MNC is far too team oriented of a game, to survive without somethat that really encourages team play. (other than just winning) I hear way too much, "well we lost but look at my K/D Guys, wasnt my fault.. you all suck" I'd like to be able to respond back with things like, "you didn't kill 1 bot, build one turret, or touch the money ball.. THAT IS WHY WE LOST" Might make them realize that K/D has LITTLE if NOTHING to do with winning in this game.

</WallOfText> (Sorry for the long read, tried to trim it the best I could, I'm a bit long winded at times.)

Thesis 1: you can't fix people, no matter the incentive (bound within reasonable limits)

Thesis 2: People over here in Europe actually prefer Mumble, vastly superior

It's not on UberEnt to fix the voicechat since that work is done by Steam, the current client beta uses slightly better settings; it won't help though.

A Scoreboard with that many things, provided the other stats remain visible, would be quite cluttered.

Showing how many bots you killed, how many turrets you broke, how much damage you dealt to the moneyball is as little indication as kills are. You could just as well use Earnings and Deaths as the only stats that show and be done with it.

Classes differ, some are better at killing bots, some are better at dishing out damage (that applies to both the moneyball and players so the KDR people at least do something right - they do deal damage), some are better at downing turrets.

Nature of class-based game, people will draw the wrong conclusions from it either way.

Apply occam's razor and you get: no change needed.

I would welcome #of bots killed and # of turrets downed on the scoreboard. The current scoreboard certainly doesn't help players to understand that this is not TMD. It might not be enough but it would be a start.

In my opinion the current system rewards pro kills way too much compared to any other activity.

I can see your point, and cluttered it would be for sure, perhaps adding a 2nd page, that you can hit next to view, for those other options, would help.

And yes "you can't fix people" but I do find that games that encourage team play through scoreboard do have better PUG environments" But again, Not all class's get reflected you are correct. So leave K/D as an indicator too.

I would like to see CHAT sytem (text chat) usable at death (a good time to hit a quick note to the team) and i would like to see the chat come up in a better color and LARGER, also maybe raised a little to the left.

Often times If I want to see chat, I have to hit the chat button and see what was said.

Ive just never played a game before with so little CHAT and Voice Speak.. and if ever a game required communication its this one. but thats really a side note to the scoreboard changes. In the end, some players don't care about the scoreboard.. but an OVERWHELMING number of players DO. If you fall into the first category its nearly impossible for you to see my point, as it just seems trivial to you (and thats understandable) but I promise, that if you add a few columns from my list, you will see more assassins killing bots, more snipers attacking turrets etc.. and that alone can help in a PUG server.

Number 5 brings up a question I've had for awhile.

When the game ends, why not show who made the final hit on the moneyball?

And what would that accomplish?

EXACTLY.. maybe ALL my columns would be over kill, but a few from the list could really help..

Especially on maps where you can purchase JUICE, as most PUGERS only DO THAT with money, I seldom see them upgrade turrets, buy bots.. and those are two very key things, even more key to juice rushing with an assault or sniper IMO, as assault I almost never buy juice or hit the annhilator, I usually always upgrade defenses, push turrets at mid, and buy bots..

I don't know, I see your points Grim, and you are correct in saying that you CANT MAKE new/bad players play correctly, but you can atleast encourage it, and once they start doing it, its addicting to play this game right. Its an amazing team game, that a lot of people are playing solo, they might eventually leave because they find it too difficult to WIN... and that would be sad..

Also some better MATCH finding would help, the ability to filter options up search.

Show me Ping < 100, servers with the follwing rules (no team switch, no juice buy, class limit). That would help alot..

I always kinda wish they had a TF2 FINAL KILL CAM, for the money ball.. that does a quick replay for the PRO/BOT who took it down, and makes everyone on the server see it

would add a little pizazz.

This still doesn't change that kills > everything.

If you removed kills from the scoreboard, THEN people would be pissed not knowing who did better in the game.

Your scoreboard changes nothing , because kills would still be the most important factor in everyone' mind.


My suggestion for a fix: remove kills, only show turrets killed/ moneyball damage and MAYBE amount of $ earned.

It would encourage people to try to "steal" that last hit off others and promote a rather rugged playstyle.

The moneyball is down, your team won the game, you know what you contributed; is that not enough?


I have yet to see a scoreboard encouraging me to play in a certain way, sure it could have some effect on some players but then again you could just focus those resources on more pressing things; like fixing other interface bugs.

Adding or altering features should be reserved for the time after you fixed your present issues.

I mean, really, you press tab and see a bunch of numbers for other people. What kind of metric is that? I compare my minion killing ability to that of a different class and get what? Not much.

I feel the place those metrics are at right now are where they belong, they tell me after the game how I performed regarding those things and allow me to judge if it needs any adjustments.

"It's 10 minutes into the game, I only killed 2 turrets, oh god the scoreboard, what are people gonna think?"

I mean I'm all for encouraging proper teamplay but some image with some numbers won't magically turn people into communicating and well-playing people so they can show off their awesome "look how many static targets I destroyed" number.

Kills however do bare a certain point. "I killed that player, that moving and counter-acting player. I killed many of them, they stood no chance against me."

That's a much deeper sense of satisfaction for some people than being the team-killer.

Both sides have their advantages, neither fix people.

Thinking economically, and I know I am repeating myself here, there is no change warranted - in my view - due to a lack of apparent impact.

Yeah , I think I would have to say I agree with grimbar 100%. He hit all the points on the mark if you ask me.

However, I would also like to point out the fact that typically the people with the poor k/d ratio are the ones that are not providing enough effort. So the people that are going 30-0 are actually doing more towards winning the game than the player with 0-30.

Yes, the game is seeming to appeal to "deathmatch" style gameplay. Can you change people that enjoy killing others, rather than winning? I'll admit I have MORE fun killing LOADS of players than winning the game, especially when that means I have to suicide rush the moneyball by myself rather than as a team. Also, if all of us focused on the other teams moneyball rather than "deathmatching", I have a feeling that more of my games would end in 2 minutes rather than ending in overtime.

To sum it up: You can't change people for how they want to play the game.

Um FUN?

Not everyone approaches a game from a clearly competetive stand point. I mean is it nessecery, No.. but it would be fun to see. I mean why not? What does the announcer's funny comments announce, we could limit him to announcing the annhilator but that wouldnt be as fun.

well like I said, I would be for removing kills all together, but there is no way to do that without annihilating the gamers who care about that.

I think that wiht the right columns, you can actually make Kills less than or ateast on par with collumns like turrets killed, bots killed.

I see your point, and on that we will just have to disagree. I think that for you scoreboard is < Winning. However for a large number of puggers, that is not the fact. And this is common with gamers who play in team competitive matches, you kinda get the whole K/D matters drilled out of you, its about winning as a team. Well thats where I would like too see the entire community head, but its just not the case. I personally believe that average players (average in team gaming experience) need motivation in the form of reward (recogntion) (score board) in order to being the shift in dynamics to team play.

Again this is oppinion, and we differ.. no big deal.. this is why domocracy works, liberals need conservatives to bump heads with, no one should get their way all the time, and compromise is usually a more sound solution.

All fine and well, and sorry for the slight derail, but who the hell made you think that this could be anywhere near democracy?

This is Scathis' Lair, he is our supreme ruler and our benefactor; we are just mere mortals in comparison.

You're right you cant, but you can provide tools the help educate them on the different ways to play the game, and allow them to choose for themselves.

I feel many players simply don't understand HOW to play their class.. if you ever played a FPS you know how to kill other players, so they do what they know. How many assassins who havent come to the boards, do you think KNOW they are supposed to take out bots and turrets? I mean hell the class is called assassin, it practically screams kill other players only.. and with no one typing/talking in pugs, that could carry on forever.

now if the scoreboard said, bots killed, turrets killed.. he might think.. hmm.. maybe I should do that. Now you could argue that we could just as easily put up a big sign when he picks assassin that says "do this" but the counter to that is, if he does that well, no one says GOOD JOB to him, because he doesnt have a top slot on the Score Board (well some will but most wont) and more importantly he doesnt get that same sense of accomplishment. Some players get their sense of pride (and thats important in gaming) from winning, others from seeing their name in lights.

Agaain if you get yours from winning, than you'll probably not undrstand how addicting the top scoreboard slot can be. But trust me I used to be THAT GUY who always topped scoreboard, regardless of rather I was truly helping with objectives in a game.. Team Fortress helped em fight that urge, and lately I'd MUCH rather win.. But When I win and am at the lower half of the scoreboard a little something insdie still feels like crap. If I had that Bots killed / turrets killed column, that might not happens.

But hey, tomatoes tomatoes, I'm just putting it out for the community to talk about, not trying to change your mind..

The order of the scoreboard is decided by earnings, not by kills.

LOL

My father was a Drill Sergeant when I was a kid, he used to always tell me.

"Son, Soldiers fight for democracy, we don't practice it" lol.

And no worries. Personal feelings always come into play and its totaly understandable.. Thats what the forums are for, to some degree.

I would also like to see the penalties for leaving at the score screen removed.
Sometimes you just have to go and would rather not wait for the countdown.
Plus it's not like you left mid-game or anything so I don't see why you lose your earnings.
Not that big of a problem, but once I found out it did that it kind of annoyed me.

SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED