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Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Someone help me out here. Seems like all the advice given to deal with assassins are dealing with bad assassins who don't know how to use the "R" lunge. I'm looking for advice to actually punishing the assassin (actually kill him) after a missed lunge into grapple, or a face grapple attempt. I mainly play support/assault.

Question 1:
Can I counter-grab them after they finish a grapple that doesn't kill me and they follow up with jumping? Seems like I can't if the assassin jumps to counter my counter-grab. Sometimes I do manage to grab, but I'm not sure if it's because of lag, or because the assassin did not jump.

Lets assume I can't counter grab or missed the grab - and the assassin has side jumped after his grab. What's my best course of action here? Seems like I should make distance. But then I feel like he can just lunge at me again or smoke-bomb jump/lunge away and reset. Doesn't feel like I can kill him. And it feels like I should be able to if he initiates and fails to kill me.

Question 2:
Ok, I hear him stealthing, now what? I start jumping around a lot, feels like I'm just delaying the inevitable. Can I actually pinpoint which direction the assassin is in from the sound alone? Feels like if i start spraying around, I MIGHT get lucky and get one shot off which just scares him and he can smoke-jump or lunge/sprint away. All of which doesn't really leave me in a better position. Since I feel like they have so much more mobility than any class they can relocate to kill other bots/turrets/pros - I still end up losing ground even if they run away and don't even attempt to kill me. What options do I have to actually kill the assassin if I know he's nearby?

Question 3:
What classes can survive (with what Armor endorsement) a lvl 3 passive lunge + face-grapple combo? Besides tanks of course.

Overall, I feel like despite their low hp - any assassin running armor endorsement is too hard to kill because of their mobility/escape options and the damage output of some guns are really lacking at a mid/longer range. Feels like yea, I can avoid them for a bit, but eventually they'll get me, or just accumulate juice faster and take down turrets faster.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

The only really annoying thing with sins is the fact they can lunge from the front and get an insta back grapple on top of the lunge damage, plus eventually another lunge after the grapple, which is enough to kill even a fully upgraded gold armour tank.

Not sure if it's by design or not but apparently to get a back grapple you just have to be next to your opponent and looking in the same direction, is it like that on the xbox too? Cause I can imagine such mechanic making sense on a console where turning 180 can't be that instant and matchs hosted on people's xbox makes ping unreliable, but on PC with dedicated servers it would be a bit silly to keep this design.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

I think assassins need a little nerf, but not sure in what aspect. What I've found is even though there are bucketloads of horrible assassins, once you come across a skilled one, it is very hard to kill them.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

I know its impossible to have 16 kills with a sword and no melee kills.

me thinks this does not update as often as you would like to believe, and that not all are accurate.

I also think that that has nothing to do with the points I raised.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

You're playing against bad people.

All points addressed.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Yet on really good servers I'll get grappled in mid-air due to lag, and sometimes grapples are bugged where you can get grappled while falling of the edge. Yea, something needs done about grapples, but I would also be fine with keeping it the way it is. It's bothersome but I guess I can tolerate it. Thankfully it's just so easy to jump and avoid assassins. One bad grapple isn't going to break me.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

As Support, you're **** outta' luck. Assault can easily Charge her down, or use that to retreat.

Putting an Assault Bomb, or an Airstrike on her will really ruin her day. To survive the Airstrike, she has to run like hell to cover - it's two options for her, die in a blaze of glory, or run the hell away.

Yes, you can, it's surprisingly easy. Loudness means she is close, at that point you should have no problem seeing her shimmer; at which point you should blow her away. If you still can't see her and the humming isn't going away then she's on an arch or something above you.

This appears to be your problem. Hoping for the best is the worst option.

You don't have to kill Assassin - making her retreat is also a victory. An Assassin hiding in her own spawn isn't contributing to her team, and she can't kill you either.

Overall, I really suspect you're applying a deathmatch mindset to this. Killing isn't what makes you a good player, or what makes a team win. You need to shake that first.

The other thing that everyone needs to understand is that this game is asymmetrically balanced - nobody ever should be equal to another class. Support is the one who I imagine has the hardest time against her. Try a different class, or try Assassin to find her weaknesses.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

It comes down to your credibility. You claim to play Assassin a lot.

Given the hypothetical situation that Steam may update stats. slowly, we should see your knife count jump a lot within a day.

Lets see if it does.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

There's a difference between being grappled a fraction of a second after you left the ground and being back grappled right after an assassin lunged in your face imo.

The first one I can live with because there's not much that can be done about that technically, at least not without getting other issues, and it also affects all classes (like for example snipers getting a head shot while you just managed to get out of their LoS, or while you are charging to dodge them). But the second one seems to be a case of game mechanic that doesn't work as it's supposed to because I don't think it's really a latency issue.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

I will try to land a bomb/airstrike - but I feel that's too slow.

Good assassins stay at lunge range. I can expect it to be somewhere behind me. But knowing that doesn't feel like it helps much. My best option seems to run away. But the assassin can continue to chase with better mobility or go kill another wave of bots that I can't guard.

The good ones are never in their spawn, nor should they be. They have invisibility and mobility. If I don't take my chances to hinder her, she can kill waves faster, get to more waves faster, or kill turrets in base. The best usage of my time is to waste her time.

Perhaps, but this is more about a specific aspect of gameplay I'm trying to improve on - punishing a good Assassin. Doesn't feel like I can. Feels like they can choose when to engage and when to disengage.

That's why I asked. What are her weakness? Seems like the best answers are to avoid her or let her run away. There has to be a better answer. Maybe pick tanks. My friend started playing with her, and is always at least 5 kdr and clear bots/turrents as well. I asked him what I can do against him - and he says not much other than to pick tank or camp Support at base. But he's new to the game as well so I'd figure to ask advice from more experience players.

I appreciate the response and help.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Melee attack for the Assassin is a kick. Sword kills are regular non-grapple kills. According to your stats and your record, you have only killed 16 people by non grapple attacks, you have no melee kills and you have not grappled 10 people in a single round yet.

You haven't juiced 7 times in a round either, and most Assassins should get that one pretty easy.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Gunner counter: slam + minigun.
Tank counter: charge + death blossom.
Support counter: 1 shotgun blast
Assault counter: fly + assault rifle
Sniper counter: The assassin is the sniper's counter, so obviously this is tougher, but traps are obviously your best bet. You also have a long grapple animation which probably won't kill, but it usually delays them long enough to let someone else get the kill.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Also you have to keep in mind that you have your team to rely on too. An assassin doesn't want to take on two people at once.

On the subject of Support, being by yourself is risky in of itself. You should be tagging along with your team mates, healing them, and dropping your firebase if you feel they've secured you a good spot. A support behind a gunner isn't an appetizing target for any class, let alone assassin.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

@Tymeo: Yep. You're absolutely right about Tank.

I would recommend that you try that against the Assassin. Also, there's going to be little options against a good player no matter what class you or they are.

As an example, I exclusively Tank. Therefore mobility is my biggest weakness. I'll go as far as avoiding fights that I would likely have to retreat from. Hanging around jump pads for easy escape is something I try to do as often as possible when not pushing a lane.

If a player is worth their weight in salt, they'll try to minimise their weaknesses as much as possible. Just remember that.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

all the classes are overpowered in their own ways

that makes it fun!

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

I should put that in my sig, so many bad players still dont know how to counter sin.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/tinygod/st ... ightCombat
Tinygod you claimed to be dominating pubs with sin, i think in reality you got dominated by a good sin who knew how to play their class, so came to whine on the forums.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

ive changed my mind again and think assassins are too good. no, like the OP im not QQing and am not concerned about balance versus other pros (which i think heaps of people miss, in this thread at least), just their capacity to (still) wreck bases. and i certainly appreciate they're probably the hardest class to play well. i was playing one guy who, if he killed me, it was completely by accident as i closed to grapple his juicing assassin; he ignored me the whole game me and spent it knocking down turrets. i noticed this early and built all combinations of ice/rockitt/firebases i could afford during each stage of the game, and it had little impact. i think he was carrying speed sponsorship and he'd lunge his way from ice turret to ice turret and nobody could catch the bugger. i overhealed/hacked everything as much as i could.

there's no doubt i was thoroughly outplayed by a much better player. not doubting that for a second. it was really impressive to watch. but i tried everything i could think of (with inconsistent help from my team) and everything i've read suggested here since beta launch, and it didn't mitigate his onslaught at all. ive since had similar games with other assassins.

imo the seeds of previous OPness are still there. the assassin remains excellent at every facet of the game, and require an inequitable amount of effort/consideration to counter, when compared to other pros. i dont think they should be great at killing pros, bots AND turrets, not when they're the fastest and stealthiest and have the best chance of getting to the enemy base in order to juice rape it as well. i dont feel any other pro is as strong in all the areas of MNC that really count, and ive been raped by them all.

but i'd still like to hear what much better players think, and again, my post has nothing to do with how to deal with an assassin that's coming to kill you. that balance feels fine.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

Their strength is countered by how easy it is to kill them.

Even if you don't kill them, attacking them is usually enough to make them run the hell away.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

IMO what's absolute BS about sins is the lunge-facegrapple, and then, just to really take the piss, an free melee/sword attack BEFORE the effects of the grapple have finished, killing you before you can move an inch or respond.

What's also pretty irritating as hell though is this doesn't work the other way around, where say I'm gunner, land my Lvl 1 grapple on her, then the INSTANT I use Slam (so it's depleted my skill) she then grapples me and the slam fails to go off. Then I got to kill her while she's jumping about slashing me with no effective way to hit her.

Also irritating as hell that this can work inverted too against me. Get lunge-face grappled but then I managed to get my counter-grapple to connect, ONLY FOR HER TO KILL ME MID-GRAPPLE using her sword. That's exceptionally BS IMO.

Also that reminds me, Tank's product grenade is also bugged like crazy, either failing to launch or blowing up with no effect/VERY delayed and VERY wrong placement of cluster bombs. But that's mostly off-topic.

Re: Does assassin seem OP to anyone else?

The problem isn't speed, or stealthiness; it's still Juice.

That's the only argument about Assassin balance that I agree with. I'll ask this question; could an Assassin do that without Juice, no matter how skilful?