Grapple Balancing Idea

Also, the 0/2,500 kills with Assassin Knife/Sword is proof enough.

Actually, I remember surviving a sword backgrapple as a tank with bronze armour and passive 3 as well as surviving with silver armour and passive 2. I'm pretty darn certain of that.

Don't lunge + back grapples kill ALL classes? i thought that a dev said that? or were they talking about a lunge out of cloak 3 into a grapple?

Lunge -> backgrapple doesn't kill fully armoured tanks. I'm Pretty sure of that. Doing it out of cloak 3... Not so sure about that.

Get the **** out would you kindly? I don't think assassins are underpowered or even overpowered at the moment, but their grapple damage at the moment is fine. Even if you think the proposed changes might help the game, what would you expect to happen as soon as noobs realize this change and do nothing but face grapples?

Good day sir! :|

They will unless the target is overhealed or being healed while in the grapple. Then several classes can survive that.

I will personally atest that you shouldn't back-grapple a target that is tethered to a support...

Really this thread comes down to competing ideas of what an assassin's role is. One person is basing that idea on what we understand an assassin to be in other contexts outside MNC. Everyone else is basing the idea on what this particular assassin is good at.

I don't know what to say. She's not the best choice for PVP action, and changing that fact would require all sorts of other balance changes to a game that's currently fun.

If it's annoying to have to play an assassin that's not the most deadly thing on two feet, maybe rename her in your mind to fit what she's for. Operative. Phantom. Shadow. Stalker. Buffy the Robot Slayer.

assassin is the reason me and most of my friends play with gold armor. dying to one facestab is retarded. as is the whole class.

Then you guys go ahead. Until you learn to be able to counter-assassins, then do what you have to. They can be easy to counter so long as you know what to do and when to do it.

emphasis on "can be easy". i hardly get backstabbed, but a facestab is a bit different matter. you can just run up to them and press one button for a kill, and stuff like traps cannot cover everything. it just isn't reasonable, even against classes like sniper and support.

Silver armor suffices for facestabs

Not if they lunge first.

Death to the face grapple.

You can have three traps down, if they're able to grapple you through that then it's probably your own fault.

And if you're getting face grappled as an assault, I don't know what to say.

This by a long shot. Hear the cloak noise, start hovering and watch for the bugger.

For assault it's literally one button.

For sniper, well, you're camping at long range right? You're supposed to have spatial awareness. At the very least, be paranoid. I'm not saying jump when you know one's nearby. I'm saying bunnyhop like it's in your DNA.

If anything, the minimal investment in leveling up to sword and landing a back grapple is less than the skill in keeping alert, knowing how/when/where to look for assassins, catching one before they strike, and killing them before their inevitable suicide rush connects with a BS grapple.

The sword is pretty much an assassin's license to quit thinking responsibly and start going for every back grapple they can. It won't help the team and it's an idiotic way to play, but that's the effect it has. And no matter how diligent you are about jumping, keeping your jets lit, listening for the cloak, looking for shimmers, etc., sometimes they'll get lucky.

If the occasional player death were an important consequence, I'd say back grapples actually need nerfed because of that luck factor. But giving up one kill after stuffing an assassin 9 times isn't so intolerable when getting killed isn't such a big punishment.

Oh crap, I forgot about that.

In my rage I forgot that death isn't even a big deal in this game.

And even if you rage at dying to a front grapple or a back grapple or whatever we're talking about cause I've honestly forgotten, it's an awfully inefficient way of earning lots of kills.

An assassin might get a couple of inconsequential kills but she's hardly going to be a threat to your victory if she gets some lucky grapple on you.

The grapple system probably doesn't need any balancing. I predominantly play as an assassin. I routinely come top of my team (i'd say 4/5 times), and out of around 50 matches i've played since getting MNC, the teams i've been on have only ever lost about, i'd say, 5 times.

The trick to effective grapple kills, is a) get the sword quickly, as you simply won't have the damage output otherwise, back grapple or not, and b) you have to start to become 'picky', about when you kill. Assassin's are all too prepared (far too often) to accept a front grapple, rather than NO grapple at all. And the OP is right, it does make things 'hard to read'. However, if you are thinking that way, you misunderstanding how to play effectively. See, I generally assume that an enemy player can be killed by a back grapple (except the tank). Probably not a front one though. I have to believe that the back kill is possible, otherwise i'd never attempt grappling at all (it wouldn't be worth the risk, strategically), and statistically, i'd say i judge that outcome right based on reality... on average, back grapples I make kill far more enemy Pro's outright than they do not.

Either way though, if it doesn't, there are multiple options available to a skilled assassin. Since I always (and ANY assassin worth crap does the same) slot gold for Armour, this makes me pretty resilient to long distance supressing fire, and I use this to 'test' the reactions of enemies Pro's from a distance. If an Assault or Gunner, sees me from a mid-distance away for example, I do not have to cloak and run blindly for him. No, I lead them one way, then escape jump far out of range and attack from a completely different angle. Constantly re-evaluate the situation, and always shift your attack to maximise the chances of that back grapple. If a front grapple is the only outcome that seems likely, refocus your attack elsewhere (a different, unaware Pro, or the closest bot grouping).

A skillful player is not concerned with killing a single enemy, or even multiple enemies (in the absence of the ability to kill ALL his enemies). A skillful player is concerned with stopping his opponent from reaching his objectives, and completing his own objectives. If I back grapple an Assault, and he is using a gold Armour endorsement, and even my back grapple fails to kill him, he'll do one of a few things. He'll grapple me back, but even then, it won't kill me unless it is a ring-out, since i'm also using gold Armour. He may attempt to escape with the jetpack, and shoot me, but chances are he has far less health than i, and I can probably dispatch him with my sword in short order (since I can still slash while jumping). If it is a Gunner, and a back grapple goes wrong and becomes a front grapple, just jump straight away, as 8 times out of 10, they'll simply Ground Slam and miss you, and then you can finish them off with the sword, again, watch for ring-out'ing grapples back from the Gunner, just watch your angle of attack, even if he connects, you'll be knocked far away, and gold Armour makes it little more than a inconvenience.

Assassins, whether people choose to accept it or not, are one of the most effective anti-bot classes in the game. I can destroy the usual 3-6 Slims and 3-6 Blackjacks in roughly 3-4 seconds once I have the sword (it has a massive arc, and i simply run to the side of them cloaked, turn into their backs at a sprint, and decloak Critical slash into the largest mass of the enemy... works exceptionally well. I can clear eveything the enemy team has coming off the field in less than a minute, on every map except 'GrenADE III' (it simply takes too long to move from side to side, unless you use the middle Ejectors, which i tend not too, for some reason...).

The point here is, people are right... if you think the main strength of your class (assassin) is based soley on the ultimate power of a guarantee back-grapple kill, then you are underrestimating it's capabilites entirely. Assassins work best when you are relentless, constantly adapting killing machine. Cloak and sprint allow you to move across the map fast, destroying all enemy bots fast (tbh, faster than any other class i've seen, maybe i'm just playing mine great... Lol.), Smoke bombs allow you to stun turrets to assist in your own bot pushes into the enemy base, you can kill enemy Pro's outright (most of the time) when upgraded and attacking from behind, and can (if you are situationally aware, and have planned your approach and exit) usually easily retreat if you were unable to finish the job, and refocus your efforts immediately on pursuing the most damaging objective to the enemy team you can find within your immediate area... or pretty much incapacitate a most damaging threat (Jackbot XL) to your own teams' success.

Never be too proud to back off when you are out-gunned or in a poor attacking position.

Assassin's have -plenty- to do that doesn't involve enemy players at all. Adapt fast, and change focus quickly... and your bots will start to make it further across the enemy side of the map than theirs seem to be making it to yours.

Attack in every way you can. Not just the way you prefer. Do not rest. Then you'll be an truly valuable assassin who can turn matches.


PS: Tanks are a bitch though... Lol. I just tend to attack them if they're a) weak, or b) juiced... as the grapple animation keeps them busy and not damaging anything for a few seconds... even if I am guaranteed to die after he gets up.

^ holy ****.......