Grapple Balancing Idea

I can see only the assassin benefiting from this change. No other class revolves around grappling.

No thanks, a huge buff to assassins is not needed.

Extra crits are a bit of a different beast. It certainly gets used, but I bet it would be used more if it was simply higher damage.

I do believe he means rate of fire endorsements.

Ummm nahh... Grapple is fine as it is. In fact in my opinion an assassin front grapple should only kill another assassin regardless of endorsements. An assassin that's foolish enough to grapple from the front deserves punishment. If they screw up the gank they have a blind that they can use to escape.. A move rarely ever used for its true purpose.

Even with armour perks any assassin with a clue how to play their character knows that timing their grapple straight after dashing in with R should ignore any perks and reward a kill on pretty much any class other than a tank.

Let's keep it so that assassin at least requires a little skill to use...

Crits aren't the only boost for damage output though. There's also rate of fire, reload speed, and clip size which factor in to damage output on weapons as well as skill recharge for damaging skills. So armor is a lot more of a hindrance to grapple attacks than front on fighting. A player without gold or even silver armor could very well take out one with gold armor due to endorsements taken and use of skills. It's not as much of a bullet vs bullet game as other titles are in a head on fight.

What about awareness of the player being grappled requiring skill as well? For a front grapple there's the dust trail if sprint is used, the cloaked assassin being visible nearby, and then saying that only another assassin should die from a front grapple what about snipers who have tunnel vision down their scope but for one reason or another a back grapple isn't feasible. Shouldn't the sniper be punished for not having any awareness as well? This isn't making it so every class dies from full health to an assassin's front grapple, only the sniper and assassin (and maybe support before he has a health upgrade from his passive skill, I honestly can't remember if he dies from one before that) and then assaults and gunners dying from back grapples rather than surviving due to armor endorsements. Tanks would still survive from either grapple at full health.

Currently, Assassin will thoroughly pwn anyone that isn't on full health.

If you go to grapple someone that isn't hurt, then;

• you're doing it wrong.

There's absolutely zero reason to make grapples ignore armour. It's a stupid idea to have a class that can charge headlong into battle and instakill something. ...we have Assault for that. ;p

So everybody else should be looking all around them at all times including during heated firefights because it's too hard for an assassin to learn to pick their targets better, or attack using the sword?

That's silly.

If a player dies during a heated firefight to an assassin, then apparently either the assassin did something right picking a lone player focusing on something else, a target in the back of a group and no one noticed, or they're with their teammates and they didn't help shoot the assassin off them in time or even notice it to begin with. How would that be a problem?

The problem, as I see it, is that everybody takes armor endorsements to survive assassin grapples. An Assault with gold armor endorsement can survive an assassin's rear grapple, for example.
All of the Assassin's skills are centered around hit-and-run attacks on enemy players, and she's the only class with a rear grapple, which is capable of instantly killing everybody except a Tank.
Now that everybody takes armor endorsements to survive Assassin grapples, the game becomes a lot less readable for Assassins, since they can not know ahead of time what the result of any one grapple will be.

Changing grapple damage to a flat percentage of maximum health would reinforce the Assassin's primary role as a hit-and-run killer of high-value players, as well as freeing up an endorsement slot for everybody else since they'd no longer take armor endorsements to survive Assassin grapples.
As a Sniper or Assassin, for example, both you and the enemy Assassin would know that a front grapple to you would kill you, as is the case with their default class endorsements.

I'll finish by saying that this would not buff the Assassin, but would make the game more readable, as well as emphasizing the particular function of each class' grapple.

Sorry, I don't consider DPS to be the same thing. That wasn't really my point.

Mildly amusing image macros aside, even if you're arguing the point of the assassin, it's a fact that the assassin builds juice the fastest. Taking out pros is risky if we're talking about pros who have experience dealing with assassins. Whatever your opinion on the assassin and how she deals with lane pushing, hitting bots gives her juice and juice in turn enables her to do so much more.

Allowing more targets to die from front-grapples is just a crutch for assassins. A crutch I do not endorse. People across the PC boards are already bitching and moaning about the assassin's supposed cheap factor for killing you in one shot so who do we side with here?

Yes, exactly. In that example the Assassin would still kill without the super-grapple. If you buff Assassins then they'll be able to kill with merciless indifference.

Only on a full health Tank. Shoot them once with the shuriken launcher prior and they're dead.

Assassin still excells at hit-and-run, what she doesn't excel at it hitting first. Well, I lie, she can do that quite well, but she then must run away because she hasn't killed.

If she goes in with a friend, who paves the way for her, then she'll rack up the kills. Teamwork is key.

To make the game more readable, you'll have to change how Charge and Slam work, as well as Ejectors. I think it's a poor argument to say that it's fine to make grappling more transparent, but not every other mechanic in the game.

Grappling isn't the only thing besides shooting. The thing is, Assassin can only do those.

You still get 1-shot by a back grapple with gold armor assault. Gold armor assault has 800 health, gold armor support with passive 3 has 900 health. Gunner with gold has 1000 health and can survive a back grapple (barely.)

Thank you for also pointing out the problem I was referring to.

Which is currently the problem with the Assassin. I have no idea why you also brought up Charge, Slam and Ejectors, because they are completely different mechanics and are already very clear and readable in what they do.

No, they can't.

Everyone seems to be getting confused about who can survive what when no one mentions if the assassin has a dagger or sword.

Pros that can survive a DAGGER back grapple:

Gold armour assault
Gold + passive 3 support
Gold gunner
Tank with passive 2 + silver or just gold

Pros that can survive a SWORD grapple:
Tank + silver and passive 3, or gold + passive 2

Are you playing in a vacuum where bullets are fired one at a time, maybe turn based?

30% higher rate of fire is 30% more damage if you can aim worth a crap.

And as a sniper or assassin, you'd die to even terrible assassins without them being punished at all for being terrible.

It just sounds like you want assassin with training wheels.

No. Just no. As someone who plays the 360 version, I will say that this is a terrible idea, as even now there are so many stupid face-grappling only assassins that get their asses beat, you don't need anymore. The system is fine, and isn't a lunge face-grapple a kill? Does the PC version even have the lunge?LolImclueless Either way, NO to this idea.

EDIT: First off, no...Shes a lane pusher & turret slayer and assassin. Excels at harrassing snipers.

Secondly: No other class would benefit heavily from this suggestion other than the assassin so it is not a balance suggestion it is a "pleasle buff front grapples so they become OHKO like the rewarding backstab" suggestion. Hardly balanced no matter how you look at it.

I always like to dig up a little background info when I see suggestions like this. Flaren, I assume this is your profile on Steam:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/flarenv2/s ... ightCombat

Your achievements tell me that you have played Assault and Tank and probably one round of Crossfire with the Support. I don't see any grapple kills or sword kills, things that I would associate with playing Assassin. In TF2 you seem to prefer every other class over the Spy.

Why on earth do you want the grapples to be changed if you don't even play the class that would benefit from it and people who do play Assassin tell you it's perfectly balanced as it is?!?