Enough with the "just mod it" argument

First of all, this is an issue that had been running around my head for quite a while, so it is not related to any recent discussion in the forums, and some people may remember me raging about that some time ago.

I also want to be very clear on something, this topic is not meant to discuss whether any particular feature should be in game.

basically, the issue i have is each time someone proposes something, there's someone who says "nah, but someone will probably mod that"

i hate that.

i hate mods about as much as most people hate DLCs, when i buy a game, i expect it to be complete, adding stuff myself feels a lot like using cheat codes.
imagine you're playing chess, but with a mod that replace rooks by rocket launchers. okay, that's fun, but you're no longer playing chess.


now let's get back to PA : let's say some people want [whatever feature], some say yes, some say no. fine.
and then capt'ain can't decide says "someone will mod that"

it's fine when someone ask for surprise meteor showers that blows half your base at random, you can mod that, you're free to be a masochist.

but when it's an idea that makes actually sense in game ? "you can mod that" is not an acceptable answer. to remain neurtal, i'll take the exemple of nukes : a lot of people said yes, and a lot said no. (i guess?)
the idea itself can be either something stupidly strong and unbalanced (worthy of being a mod), or it can be done in a fair way that would be good for the game (in which case it should be either yes or no). if the answer is no, then it's probably because it would break the balance of the game, or somehow doesn't fit.
then making a mod that adds nukes would be nothing but a cheat code.


we could actually apply that to anything: why even put more that an dozen units in the game ? you can mod extra ones if you're not happy. in fact, you can mod all you want, so let's sell an empty shell ! people will mod everything they need anyway !
I'm not even joking, i saw people say "just mod it" in almost every topic i read, if we listen to you guys the game is complete since the middle of beta, why are we still here then ?

i don't understand why apparently everyone goes crazy with modability, i'd like to see steam's statistics on that, but i'm pretty sure people who rarely/never uses mods are actually an overwhelming majority.


well, i hope i managed to explain the issue clearly, i'm probably not the only one who dislike mods, it is very unlikely that i'll install any of them, so saying "just mod that" is an easy and lazy way to say 'no' to me.

For SupCom some of the best UI features are mods. But there is only need for them because the core game lacked them. I too despise the "just mod it"-attitude. And it would be great if PA did not need any UI mods that make up for significant shortcomings in the controls. But I'd doubt that's going to be the case.

Because even best games have flaws and it's clearly impossible to make one game that everyone will like. There always will be some features you don't like and something you need missing.

Mods just give you ability to adjust game for yourself. I do understand your concern, but majority of this forum want spend lot of time on this game and I guess most of them will use mods.

Not everything that the people want will be added into the game for many reasons.

The main reason is that the devs only have so much time.

Not everything makes sense to be in the core game.

Another thing that's going on when people say "mod it" is because we don't know all of the answers. Sure some people may be advocating for adding it into the core game but then will toss in, "If it doesn't get added into the core game, someone will mod it." And that's perfectly fine! The devs have their priorities and goals and they don't align with everyone on the forums.

Now let's compare it to Minecraft. Minecraft is under constant development by a team of developers. There are tons of things that "should be in the game" but aren't – often due to time constraints as they'll eventually get added or because the devs think other features are more important. So people mod in the things that they want. Some are UI changes, some are adding just a few blocks, some are crazy intricate.

So calm down.

PA is going to be a kickass game and mods are going to only improve the game.

This is mod territory.



Trolololol.

One of the main selling points of this game was that it would be highly moddable. The devs made it clear right from the start that they planned to make more of a game engine as a platform for mods than an actual game, and the only reason that people are forgetting this now is that Uber has done such a great job so far.

I personally am most interested in UI mods, which by luck are what we can play around with right now. Like SXX said, UI mods in a finished game are important to have so that people can customize it however they want. While we are still in development, I like to think of mods slightly differently.

I see mods as the best way to make a UI suggestion to the community and devs. A good mod takes a basic idea, works out the details, and then gets tested by the community. User feedback pushes more change on the mod until it is very useful, at which point the devs look at it and make their own version of it for the full game. There have already been a few cases of mods becoming obsolete because the devs took the idea and added it to the game!

There is really no other way to clearly tell Uber exactly what we would like to see in the game than to just make it ourselves and use it often. You can of course just choose not to use mods, but you will just be relying on the rest of us to make good decisions for the things we suggest to Uber. You will also be relying on Uber to make good decisions in their own UI.

I did notice this as well. Every suggestion is met with "just mod it" as if that's meaningful in any way. There is a central server where most of the players will be, the vast majority of players will just be playing the game as presented by Uber. It's not acceptable to have to depend on mods for core aspects of the game.

Mods are for stupid things that are still funny, but that you don't want to have in your main game. It's not for core features.

^ What SXX and Brian said. You're right, most people won't install most mods, as they either won't be good enough or fit their preference, but that's fine, and serves to make the game richer. A few mods will become very popular, and probably get folded into the game proper, only making it better. I prefer that to a locked down game where unpopular features or design choices can't be altered.

You're extrapolating and putting words in people's mouths.

No one is advocating that "core aspects" of the game are handled by mods.

Absolutely no one is advocating that.

Some things really are not moddable at the present time. =P
Even if the person suggesting it would be more then happy to mod it in.

It's true that when you look at actual mod databases of moddable games they're not as romantic as people make it out in PR (many mods being just cheats of some sort), but a lot of that is also because the games in question dont have great mod support.

Nobody is but it's not such a bad idea. If core features are modded in that just means modders can do more then if they're hardcoded in.

The main problem is quite a few people come on here and say, "I want X, Y and Z."

The thing is X, Y and Z may not be planned to be in the game at all(like bubble shields or single player story driven campaign).

When we say "someone'll mod it" it usually means that it either won't be or we hope it won't be in v1.0 from Uber(or even planned to ever be in).

It's not a cop out, or an insult. It just means that PA is getting made one way, if you want it to go a different way then mod it or wait for a mod(also Skyrim + mods = tons more hours of replay ability).

While I agree that modding is a great thing, I think you are completely wrong here. This game needs a good UI to start with. Mods will make a good UI even better, but there's only so far you can go with modding.

Also, this idea that Uber is incapable of making a finished game is a myth. It may take a long time, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

The TA / Supcom genre has been defined by mods.

TA's on-line player base rose quite a while after the game was released and some very key mods were *standard* for anyone playing on-line.

TA-Spring (A full 3-D remake of the original game) actually evolved from the TA Replay system created by Clan SY. TA-Spring games are all based around mods which are made freely downloadable from the main lobby- you don't have the mod for a particular game, no problem just install it (which is automatic) and away you go.

FA-Forever is also a major mod of Supcom FA and that is basically the definitive version of the game in my oppinion.

Uber recognise how important modding is to this genre (it basically saved TA from dying out), and so it's going to be a first class citizen. They have stated there will be an integrated mod store with free and paid for mods- It is quite conceivable that modders will be able to push the game beyond it's initial incarnation as Uber's engine has allot of scope so suggesting something can be added into a mod isn't unreasonable and will be easy to deal with for any user (you won't need to be worrying about fiddling around with individual files or anything, it will simply function as a patch).

Now I understand you feeling frustrated by people dismissing an idea with a 'mod it' statement- if an idea is really good it's worth considering for the initial game, however I don't think you should discount mods as they are likely to function in quite a different way to mods in other games (which are usually more like hacks than anything). I also fully expect that post release there are likely to be some major overhaul mods that will probably surpass the vanilla game in popularity and will become the standard (Balanced Planetary Annihilation anyone?), and Uber know and respect this.

At the moment the modding capabilities aren't complete and won't be until the 1.0 release when the server is available, however once that lands there is virtually no limit to what people will be able to do given the comprehensive framework being built up.

I really think you haven't thought this through. The statement that "any mod is effectively a cheat code" is bewildering, as it implies that a game is perfect, and that could not be improved by changing it in any way. That's just silly. Saying you don't like the concept of modding is fine, and your own prerogative. Saying that everyone else shouldn't like it either, that mods are all just cheating and that people should not distinguish between what is a core component of the game and a peripheral experience is both draconian and mis-informed about how most people make and play mods.

Now, I will admit that "just mod it" is sometimes brought out a little too quickly. It is often used as a polite stand in for "your idea sucks and really shouldn't be something that I have to put up with on my copy of PA unless I decide that I want to install it additionally". However, it is often an appropriate form of challenge. For example, many people are dubious about things such as shields or mega-bots. That is their prerogative, as is the counterpoint. However, a really good way to change their mind would be make a mod that proves such things can work and are a fun addition. If the modding community is locked down, then this cannot happen. People are denied the tools for proving their point.

Finally, I categorically disagree with the idea that enjoying mods is a minority pursuit. That only a handful of people play mods of the game. At the start of a game's lifetime, it's obvious that there aren't a huge number of modded players, simply because it takes time to make mods. However, as time goes by the number of modded players increases. For particularly long running and popular games, the modded community actually starts to eclipse the "vanilla" community, and sometimes supplants it entirely. For example, in TA, the game that spawned this sub-genre, almost everybody who still plays it plays modded TA. Why is that? Because Cavedog disbanded some time ago, and no longer supports the game. In order to keep it up to date, recent patches have been entirely produced by the modding community. You want steam statistics? As of writing this today, these are currently the most played games on steam at the moment:



The original DOTA was based on a mod for Warcraft 3:Reign of Chaos. The first version of counterstrike was a mod for Halflife. Team fortress 2 is originally inspired by Team fortress Classic - a mod for Quakeworld.

I feel the need to repeat this with emphasis, so that the message is entirely unambiguous:

THE TOP 3 PLAYED GAMES ON STEAM ARE DERIVATIVES OF MODS.

If it were not for a vibrant modding community, we would not have these games. If that doesn't place modding right at the heart of the videogame industry, then I don't know what does.

People being able to mod games to the best of their ability is a fantastic thing, that has given so much to video-games, the RTS genre, and the TA-like subgenere. Anything less than that smacks of "stop having fun in a way that's different to how I have fun".

Mods that don't effect other players are easy to deal with. UI stuff is a great example. Everyone can play with their own custom UIs effortlessly. Mods that add more substantial stuff, like new units, have the potential to fracture the player base. If whatever I'm suggesting would require people who don't have the mod play in a different game, don't suggest "just modding it". It's a troll response.

Wait, Football Manager 2014 is the 4th most played game on steam?
What.

For something that's angling for tournament viability, I think gameplay mods are dangerous territory - I remember a few older games where online play got completely crippled because everyone was playing with differing and incompatible gameplay mods. That's not proof that it will happen here obviously - but it's a consideration.

However UI mods should absolutely completely totally be fair game.

...WAT.

I think the OP is pointing out that if you have nothing better to add to a thread than "nope not gonna happen, maybe mod it" then dont bother posting.

It also needs to be pointed out that telling someone it will be a mod is misinformation, cause theres no guarentee it will be a mod.

I agree, but given Uber's inclination towards heavily supporting modding, I am hoping that they will eventually incorporate any really successful mods as "official". Although, TBH, I only really consider using mods that make interacting with the game easier/more aesthetically pleasing, so it shouldn't effect other people's experience either way.

OP: Imagine reading what you wrote posted on a Skyrim forum. That's what it sounds like here, too.