1v1: Is air first your only choice?

In 61450 it seems that in a 1v1 going air first is the best move, even with transports at T2. You get the best scout in the game and so locate your opponent in seconds. You have bombers, which can one-shot any enemy fabber and so shut down their expansion attempts. You get fighters to shoot down bombers trying to pull the same stunt on you. You get a fabber which is only slightly less efficient than fabbers from the other factories.

It just seems that going vehicle or bot factory first is a losing proposition because having fighters is the only way to safeguard your expansion against someone who went air first. Ground AA just doesn't cut it because it won't kill the bomber fast enough and the loss of time in addition to the fabber is more costly than the loss of a bomber for your opponent.

Am I wrong? What have your experiences been?

Going first air means that most of your starting fabbers are going to be air based which are more susceptible to enemy fighters than ground fabbers are to t1 bombers.

They won't have those fighters unless they've gone air first. If they go air second I have an air advantage. Air is also the means to both attack enemy fabbers (of all types) while defending yours (air), while ground doesn't really give you either.

I usually go bot first and then take the air. I have been trying out air first lately, it's just so good and T2 air factory is the cheapest t2 factory of them all.

Air is very good at raiding, but I still feel like bots are better at doing so.

And even if you do go for air first, that is for fighters only, as fabbers are much better suited to be fabber bots or fabber tanks.

The gap isn't that big any more. While I would definitely choose bot and vehicle fabbers over air, I wouldn't ignore air fabbers if it was my first factory. With the improved air fabbers, and the drop in MEX costs, I think they can be good for expansion.

Very true, I am usually paranoid about scout fighters killing half my builder force.

FWIW I found that very small groups of doxen can sometimes just outrun the T1 bomber bombs -- this is likely a consequence of the AOE damage change. Not sure what to make of it, need to play more.

I think bots are still better for the 1st factory, but in the new build it seems like a no-brainer to get an air factory 2nd.

i find it nice to go 3 mex, 1 nrg, air factory, 1 nrg, bot factory, 2nrg, nrg storage, spam nrg. I've been having lost of success for the reasons you explained if i dont see them going air. it probably isnt the best option but it ciertenly is good.

this build did see the de-throning of the bot swarms, as tanks can now properly counter them if diversified well. guard/vanguard to tank the damage, standard tanks for the main line, and, yes, artillery tanks, because holy tits they are good shots now. definitely makes an excellent first strike. i constantly roll over bot spammers with the guard/tank/arty combo. i even throw in spinners to account for air. it brings alot of people to their knees.

bots still have their use, but they can no longer steamroll a dedicated defense. i admit to using bots if i feel i just need more bodies, maybe the occasional rading party. but tanks are my mainstay when the other guy has to die.

**edited to make more gramatical sense**

I'm not so sure, they are very slow and I find it quite micro intensive to get favourable confrontations with tanks against bots. Bots dictate the direction of the game and are excellent raiders.

At the moment I feel they're both reasonably viable in the land game, though players seem to commit to one or the other, rarely a mixture. It's still shaking out I think.

Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with you completely.

If you're defending, I find tanks or bombers or gunships (or even scouts, if you catch the tanks early enough) are more effective than bots at defending against the tanks.. Bots tend to get eaten unless the tanks are isolated. A core group of 5 Taphi's will hold their own against 7 Bots. So bots need the numerical advantage if the tanks are densely grouped up. The bots tend to become more expensive and less effective that way.

As long as you don't have to move, you can just make a thin red line of Taphi's and turrets, and they'll perform fairly well on defense against bots.


Our opinions converge again: The issue is the mobile game. Bots are better shock troops due to their movement speed.



Mind you, a couple of wave attacks using Doxen (or Doxine, if they're female) tends to soften up a target, and you can send vehicles during that, they'll often be the ones that break through because the Doxen forged the way.

We don't seem to agree on anything

Oh God kill yourself.

Yeah I see your point. I prefer aggressive style dictating the game so I think that's why I favour bots still. Nice idea with the mixing I should start with bots and put the pressure on and switch up to tanks to steamroller in behind.

We agree on lots of things. I just hardly ever post to say I agree. Rather large personal flaw. I mostly agreed with you just now.

I'm calling the T1 tank the Pounder Histeraclese Ant Titanium Insect (PHATI) when I'm not feeling affectionate, and the Titanium Ant Pounder Histeraclese Insect (TAPHI) when I am

Sick of them and their identity crisis. Especially now their name is a nonsense word.



Could do, could do. Timing can be difficult. Sometimes the tanks get there too early. Transports help a little. As do teleporters. If it works for you, I'm happy to make the input.

The main issue with air is how much health air has, particularly advanced air, and how difficult it is to regain control of air once you've lost it.

That's primarily due to movement speed I think. You cannot strike where they are not because they are everywhere. It's also down to mobile units lacking any good AA.

Hmm going air first isn't necessary, but you definetly need to put one up asap. That said, my starting build is similar to the following most of the time. Veh and bot factory can be interchanged.

One Mex
One Gen
Aircraft Factory > Two air fabbers
Bot Factory > Several bot fabbers
Commander goes onto pure energy assisted by some bot fabbers
Air fabbers go off to make as much cheap metal extractors as they can before they are shot down
Remaining bot fabbers make stuff as needed depending on strategy.

I think the cheaper mex helped air first make more sense. Mex build so fast now that by the time some fighter finds your air fabber, it has already given your economy a swift jolt of probably-more-metal-than-you-can-use. I've been doing air first purely for that quick metal at the start.