Before Uber start final balancing....

I'll just copy and past what I said last time this topic was brought up, because I felt it was fairly comprehensive:

They actually know how to play. You must realise that when they are playtesting they are testing a specific thing and so they will follow a preset strategy to do something even when it's not the best thing to do (like meta who di ia T2 air rush in the last playtest to test if it actually better balanced) and while they lack the "skill" of some more competitive players, they certainly don't lack the knowledge and since they are looking out for bugs and issues so it looks like they aren't good players when the just aren't putting attention on winning.

Which is what the focus of beta participants should be on, too.

I think everyone is getting overly concerned about balance for competitive play.

For one thing, given its scope large proportion of this game really aren't that relevant to 1 v 1 games. Given the intensity of a 1 v 1 between skilled players, it tends to keep the battle tightly focused on particular units / strategies, usually basic ground / air. Jump to t2 or orbital too quickly and your opponent will swamp you with units and you've lost.

If we balance using this as the prime example of play- we're going to downplay the importance of the higher level units like the entire orbital layer, asteroids and so on. At the end of the day all players have the same units which makes the 1 v 1 balance of this game somewhat better than allot of games from the get go. Now its true that some units won't be useful in a 1 v 1 and that's something skilled players will learn quite quickly. Is this a problem? I don't think so. The only real potential issue is if 1 unit becomes so powerful that its the only choice, however that should be apparent at any skill level.

The idea of 'pro' players learning complicated exploits I think is a bit moot where PA is concerned. The units are all very simple and for the most part have no special abilities that are exploitable (the only exceptions being the Commander and possibly things like transports).

Why all the Blizzard hate? When 3 completely unrelated factions with completely different ideaologies can fight each other and have a good chance at victory, that's a pretty damn HUGE accomplishment. How many other RTS games have managed to pull this off? (Hint: It is a very low number)

Like or hate Starcraft if you want, it's certainly not every player's cup o' tea. But the balance was masterfully done because the devs were willing and able to use every single RTS tool at their disposal. They used maps, they used behaviors, abilities, unit handling, and sometimes straight up numbers. It's HARD to work that all in, so hard most people don't know that it even exists. When new metas are being discovered 4 years after its original release, what does that say about the under workings of the game?

Can a pro find one of the tiny tiny cracks in Starcraft's balance and use it to eke out an edge? Only the best in the world can do that. Do those exploits matter for you? No, they really don't. Does the better player win against weaker players, and not because of faction choice? Yes.

There are a LOT of tools that an RTS can use to create gameplay. Starcraft was built up around the idea of using every single one of them. Harvesting, repair, reclaim, different construction archetypes, base layouts, AoE of every shape and size, detection, buffs, debuffs, range classes, skills of every flavor, teleports, unit size, you name it. It's in there, and nearly every single one of them has a functional place in the game. The Uber team can definitely learn a thing or two from its example. It's literally a game filled with examples.

The playtesting videos tell nothing about balance, they just show the progress of developement.

If they try to reveal balance issues this way they will fail.
First its only about numbers and then about direct unit testing against each other at a high level. You dont need to balance a game for noobs, because they will most likely not notice it or just use the units the pro s build or just do random noob stuff.

Nothing. New metas are being discovered because the rules of the game change with every balance patch. The changes may be minor but the game itself is in near-constant flux. It simply isn't the same as four years ago.
Nobody did hate on Blizzard because of that. It was only said that constant change does not necessarily constitute balance.

back to the OP, I have an analogy that may help clarify;

The F1 racecar driver is usually not the mechanic, nor the mechanic a driver.

I'm not at all worried about how good the devs are at competitive play. They have a well-proven track record with making previous games that I've enjoyed. They know how to build a car.

The great thing about PA is that it's always going to be balanced. Without having to worry about multiple faction balance Scathis can concentrate on making sure unit variety and viability is strong across the board for the most interesting games.

That's not really true, just because both sides have access to the same units doesn't mean it's balanced, it means each player has equal opportunities. Individual units can still unbalanced even if both players have access to them.

Mike

You all should listen to this guy. He's obviously highly intelligent.

When you balance a game, you shouldn't have to initially go in saying *im gonna balance for casuals*.

You should balance games by presenting as many diverse strategies as possible, without making all the units completely even. It's fairly difficult. I might be over-thinking this, but here is a simple axiom that makes sense and kinda covers what everyone here has mentioned:

You balance a game for the regulars, and you tweak it for the pros.

When I say tweak, I MEAN IT. I don't mean, let's tweak a number here so tanks suck (*cough* this last patch). I mean tweak the effect that unit/strategy has on the game.

If something is undesired for gameplay (5 minute t2 air rush, for example) then it needs to be adjusted. Maybe not completely removed, though sometimes THIS IS NECESSARY.

For example, sniper bots. I'd like to get rid of them, personally. Don't get me wrong, I love using them and I love the idea of them - I just don't think they fit into current gameplay.