Sniper and PC

You didn't, unfortunately. You in fact didn't seem to address anything from my posts, and just seem to repeatedly assume I don't know how to fight a sniper, and frankly your generally rude tone is a little uncalled for.

I'm just saying that during the beta is the best time to test this sort of thing out, if they choose to do so. Frankly the way some people defend their "chosen class" so fervently mystifies me. I don't understand why some people get so angry at the slightest mention of changing anything about a game.

I like how the one time where I don't spout out a rain of hatred for the inane I get called angry, on the one hand you say you know how to fight a Sniper on the other you call him an I-win button. Not to sound rude but if you really knew how to fight a Sniper you would be far away from calling him that.

As Providence stated, just because players, who are not satisfied that they can't just faceroll each and every character in this game, make a thread about each and everything killing them being overpowered it does not mean that there is a majority of people pooling for changes.

Then you go on and say that the people who actually tell you that it is fine are some kind of angry people afraid of change. No sir, there is no majority on either side. Some people choose to adress this and give you advice (and yes I adressed it) and you put them away because they do not fit your view.

Come at me bro, it's go-time

For christ's sake why does everyone assume I'm on a side when I say something is worth looking at if many people think it's true. And you are angry. All the time. You write everything as if the person you're talking to is an idiot. I'm not angry that you think sniper is fine, I am pissed by the way you keep putting it. The way some people seem to think that anonymity precludes manners is pretty much the only thing that gets me going.

Let's get one thing straight here: I don't care if snipers get nerfed or not, all I personally want is for the gunner's level 3 deploy face shield to have a purpose. That is an issue irrelevant to this current discussion. What I do care about is how everyone who brings any sort of potential balance issue to the fore in this forum they are shot down and told to play more and stop being an idiot, instead of actually discussing the validity of the issue. This is a beta, issues are what they're asking us to talk about. If they don't think changes are necessary, that's fine. I just don't think that every idea should be shot down out of hand, especially when it seems to come up as often as this one does, and when it's put as reasonably as it has been in the OP.

EDIT: Frankly, headshots take skill, therefore they are rewarded with an instant kill. Bodyshots in high quantity can take down most classes in relatively short order with a rate of fire endorsement, which is the apparent issue being discussed in the original post here. Unlike pretty much all the previous threads here discussing the sniper, this one is not complaining about how "unfair" headshots are. This is the reason I find it to be more reasonable. I am aware sniper serves a dual purpose as a slayer and area denial tool, and I have a habit of popping up behind them dual miniguns 'a blaring because of this. I think it's worth it to see if perhaps a small damage falloff could be applied to bodyshots against pros, though not nearly as much as the other weapons, as it's long range by nature. This would shut everyone up and not be any kind of real handicap for a halfway decent sniper.

I was going to do the whole "Paper is fine, but rock needs a nerf. Signed, Scissors" thing, but it's not even that... It's just a knee jerk reaction to snipers these days.

It reminds me of the whole drama with Bad Company 2's "hardcore mode" and snipers. BC2 is a pretty fun game. BC2 has snipers. "Hardcore mode" was actually the easier "kid friendly" mode, where 2 or 3 bullets from any gun killed you. It downgraded the game into a glorified hide and seek (or spray and pray, really). That said, it existed and was part of the game. People STILL complained about snipers there. Cause a weapon that had A 5 bullet magazine, needed a slow reload after each shot, and needed to be scoped to be accurate at all was worse to them than, say, a 100 round LMG or 30 round rifle that could be fitted with a scope, killed you in 2 hits, and were pin point accurate for the first rounds and could do automatic fire...

People don't even try anymore. It's just a conditioned reflex at this point that snipers = BAAAD!

Who cares that the gunner/assault can two hit the sniper from behind cover with the mortar/grenade launcher? Or that the Tank's railgun seems to take the same number of hits to kill the sniper that the sniper needs to body shot the Tank? Or that the Assassin has a cloak that makes her invisible at a distance?

Nop. SNIPURS ARE BAD!

This kind of e-peen swinging douchebaggery is probably why people are becoming aggravated by your posts.

You are not making it any better by resorting to the same tone st0nedpenguin...

Everybody has the right to voice his opinion on balance as long as he does so without being offensive. And no grimbar, just suggesting that the Sniper needs a balancing change is not offensive! ;P

My opinion is that snipers are ok. We (gunners and tanks) just need to adapt our gameplay according to the map and the number of snipers in the other team.

If it means we have to go 100% defensive, I'm fine with that

I cannot see you playing defensive. That would be like calling a tornado a mild breeze...

Just as much as their is a knee-jerk reaction tendency with regard to calling for class re-balances, there is just as much of a knee-jerk reaction to shut down their ideas. You can strongly disagree, but to hop on a high horse and say "you're wrong because I'm amazing and I disagree with you" is asinine and arrogant.

I myself am not sure if I agree or disagree with the OP, but I certainly think that it is a legitimate viewpoint. I think he has every right to bring it up so that the developers can then take a look at his argument and then assess it themselves. However, to immediately shut him down in a rude way hurts the community by making people hesitant to post their thoughts. I don't post on the League of Legends forums because EVERY post that discusses character balance gets flamed. Hell, even some of the developers flame the posts. So for the sake of community and game balance, can we keep it logical and polite?

I'm gonna cut you off here. This is because most of them are legitimately terrible. I usually provide good reasons as to why they're terrible though, it's not just "nope.avi".

This man, I love him and he's probably a better person because he still has the patience to educate those who cannot be educated.

Jessep I believe balance suggestions are offensive, they insult the game designers who make a living thinking and designing these rules we live with just because they don't grasp them in their entirety. This tunnel vision approach to balance suggestions is inane and I stick to that.

Some people like Mastah already said that there is a certain way of dealing with Snipers and I gotta say he knows how to stay out of harms way (though his mortar never really killed me) and we need more people like him instead of the people who get aggravated because they do not (I repeat: not) understand the game.

I'd much rather see people who actually understand the game in it's entirety put out actual feedback based on competitive matches.

To put some more into this topic:

Yes the Sniper's headshot will most likely kill you (exceptions apply) we got that part, a scoped in bodyshot deals good damage and with gold RoF he'll shoot every 0.77 seconds which is not that much of an improvement compared to the original shot interval of 1 second. Considering latency, reaction times, various lags it's really not much of a game-breaker and will only show you that your positioning wasn't as good as you thought it'd be.

It's actually helpful because a good Sniper will teach you what you shouldn't do, changing that would be detrimental to the game and even if we did change it to headshots only, or anything interesting like that, people would still carry on debating and pooling for changes.

Feel free to shoot down a voice of reason in this sea of misunderstanding, if you believe my posts to be insulting then you aren't reading them correctly.

Uh, have you never participated in a Beta before? Balancing in a closed environment is totally inferior to balancing in a live environment, beta's aren't solely for making sure the tech works. Let me point you toward a little game called Starcraft II...

And, just for the record, I'm not saying Snipers need pulling in to line, but the higher precision of mouse control is a complete game changer for the class. I dunno if you've ever played the 360 version but it's quite difficult for a lone sniper to dominate.

I participated in enough betas to see the game die to stuff like it, let me point you toward games like Street Fighter where the devs get actual professional players to balance it with them instead of a bunch of rabid posters who die to void-ray rushes. This however doesn't add much to the discussion at hand and I'll refrain from flaming you as request by the administration

Well, thanks for declining to flame me, my day will be so much more pleasant for it. I will, however, point out that your 'infallible developer' hardline is as ridiculous as your insistence that player feedback is worthless and should be ignored. Are you going to flat out deny that a larger sampling is better than a tiny focused one?

Cuz those pro's did such a great job with Street Fighter IV when it hit, Sagat was certainly a fair and balanced character for reals.

A larger sampling is good provided the nature of the sampling is a competent one.

Its not that player feedback is worthless, its that the quality of the feedback varies so much from player to player based on their attitude, experience with the game, inteligence and so on. Developers generally arnt as likely to play their game to death as the best of its players, but they know a hell of a lot more about what is and is not a reasonable change or how things should be balanced. More importantly they know better than anyone how they WANT it to be balanced based on their original objectives.

Players just need to play the game. And your beta related feedback SHOULD be more about making the game run perfectly and function well. Balance changes can be added any time that the developer has a means to update. Thats what the starcraft 2 beta was about too. Yeah they can and do make adjustments based off of the beta, but those adjustments are based off of the developers view of what is happening in the games. Not off of what people are running in to forums moaning about. Honestly I think if a game is still in beta, certainly when its been live for as short a time as MNC, the best players can do to contribute to a balance adjustment is play the game. Play it alot. Get really good at exploiting every little advantage. If theres a map bug you can use to win, learn to use it. and win. In four months time youll be able to make a much more explicit and clear judgment about things and you will have alot more real data to back it up.

With all this said, I love talking balance changes. Its an interesting topic for discussion but that should be all.

I generally dislike the view that all games should be balanced around competitive play. While changes can and should be made because of serious imbalances in comp play, they also should be done for regular public play, and that's what we're discussing right now, because the reality is the vast majority of the players who buy Monday Night Combat will not be joining clans and scrimming. The idea that their opinions are not valid is just the sort of "holier than thou" attitude that I hear generalized constantly as what all competitive players are like. Facepunch, as a whole, seems to have a huge problem with competitive play in their team fortress 2 board, to the point where anyone who tries to discuss it is flamed into oblivion simply because of how many times they've experienced pubstomping "better than you" comp players in game. Anyone with a brain knows that these are, again, a vocal minority, but don't be that guy.

And again, I don't see how a game could be killed in beta when the vast majority of its players aren't even going to experience the experimental changes. In my last post I gave a reasonable and easy to implement baseline example for something to try in these last few days of the beta to address(and most importantly quiet) the concerns of this apparently significant amount of complaint threads. The developers are not infallible, but uber entertainment seems to be a pretty reasonable and awesome group. They listen, which is precisely why we need to discuss. If there's a possible issue, we talk about it. If they don't hear about it, nothing changes, and if it really is an issue it never gets fixed. If it isn't an issue, it's probably not going to get changed in the first place. Just discussing possibilities isn't undermining the developers, and I trust that they know what they're doing.

Someone gets it

:lol:

I swear it happens sometimes! Most of the time because i'm locked down by a sniper, or if my team is really terrible (can't blame them for that, I was a noob once too)

Yea, I've become totally paranoid over snipers!! When I know there is a good one on the other side, I'll be extremely careful not to even show an inch of my head, which makes it quite difficult to aim at them

I knew this thread wouldn't dissapoint! So amusing to read! :lol: