A (new?) idea to solve "manage a million units" and "attack a defended planet w/o asteroids" problem

I am new; I have an idea to solve the “manage 1 million units on multiple planets” and also greatly simplify assaulting well-defended planets when asteroid bombardment is not an option.

I used the search function to look for this idea (and also skimmed back 20 pages in the forum) and found nothing that seemed similar.

Idea (TLDR version): create a new unit called the “support commander” a bit like in Supreme commander 1/FA. In addition to basic t1 + t2 build functionality, it would have a major additional feature. You could toggle on an “AI ally” function, so that any unit you assigned to it, or any unit it subsequently built, would be under its control until you took control back over. This could be used on a scale as small as a beachhead or base, or as large as a planet or multiple planets.

Discussion:

Benefits:

Planetary assaults now can support multiple, self-managing beachheads, all supported by off-planet resources (assigned to that commander). This would massively complicate a defender’s problems even on a well defended planet.

Entire planets can be “managed” by an ally. If there is a UI for managing your “ally” support commander, potentially an entire planet’s production can be at least “aimed by” if not exactly controlled by the player, allowing a player to focus elsewhere.

AIs with no resource bonuses are not as good as a player, but with significant resources are still quite reasonable supporters and opponents. Given the multiple-front nature of PA and the limitations on even multi-monitor GUI, this allows progress to be made in multiple locations simultaneously.

No major reworking of GUI for the game is really needed to solve the million unit problem, or the simultaneous command of multiple planets problem.

Dropping a support commander on an uninhabited planet/asteroid would allow you to “set it and forget it,” moving on to other issues as your minion builds up for you. - especially if some sort of template system or AI setting (ie, turtle, econ, rush, etc) were integrated.

Cons:

CPU intensive, probably. At least more than not having it.

Major gameplay change – once you are commanding “many” planets/asteroids, you may be doing more strategic management of support commander priority instead of building individual mexs on each orbital body. I think it is fair to say this poses a major and maybe insurmountable problem given that the core gameplay is why we are all here.

Some sort of GUI would have to be created for managing a support commander, but I suspect this could be pretty minimalist and pretty small.

Implementation:

AI coding already exists in the game. Presumably a setting will exist by “game completion” that would allow a difficult ally AI with multiple flavors (turtle, rush, etc) and a no resource cheating setting. This is essentially the support commander ally AI.

Basic player -> AI ally commands are likely possible, given that a modder built them into FA (see Sorian AI mod). This sort of functionality (vastly improved, I hope) would allow a player to command a support commander’s forces on any scale.

Presumably “give units” functionality will end up looking a lot like SC1 if not better; allowing assignments, and reassignments.

Reversion of units to owner upon support commander death would presumably function as it does in most ally settings.

End suggestion:

My apologies if this has been brought up before. I did look. Also, I recognize that a well defended planet will kill an unsupported builder unit drop of almost any magnitude; this suggestion assumes that some sort of mass unit deliver system will exist by game completion – whether it is unit cannons, gates, drop ships, or something else.

Would love feedback, or a pointer to the relevant discussion if this already is out there as an idea.

-Pete

PS: one argument against this that holds little weight to me is that a defender could just build the same SCs and assign them to defensive bases on the fortress planet. Yes, sure; but functionally all defenses have their own AI anyway, so I am not sure what you would really get as a defender, if you had 10 SCs on planet. I mean, your catapults are going to fire regardless, right?

As an attacker, however, dropping 10 (supported) SCs would allow beachheads to be built and managed simultaneously, far better than any template would ever do. This would allow an attacker with more resources to force an opponents defeat far more easily than the current situation, while preserving the importance of space superiority.

I dislike the bit where you have to pay for the ability to have an AI manage your planet.

While I do like the overall idea of having an automated Support Commander, one issue I see arising would be resource management. As a player you have a global economy that is not restricted to a single plant. Would the AI Commander share your resources or have it's own? I wouldn't want to be in the midst of expanding a base or trying to produce units and find myself without energy or metal because my AI ally is using it for other, possibly less important, things.

On the other hand if the Support Commander had it's own resources that might limit what it can do, which makes sense since it is just a support unit.

Some relevant comments from Sorian regarding stuff along this line from the Live Stream Index 2.0;

Feature: Introduing Mike 'Sorian' Roberts and talking about AI

Question and Answer Period(AI Focus)
(37:52) Can you give Temporary sector control to AI?
(50:03) Can we have AFK AI?

Mike

who are you kidding?
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/limited-base-automation.37737/
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/localized-ai.41705/
and I can't find the rest....

I'll admit the search function is broken as fuc k

It's been talked about.

I don't like the idea. There's not much point to the game if you can just build a unit to play the game for you.

What's more, how do you balance it? What if you're a crappy player and the AI is better than you? Then there's not much point to you playing. What if you're better than the AI? Then there's not much of a point to building it. What if the AI builds a bunch of stuff you don't want and it doesn't fit into your strategy?

This is why the army game type was invented. So multiple people can deal with all of the different facets of the game when it gets super large scale.

Think about how awesome a game will be when it's a 20 vs 20 game? It'll be epic.

It would work really well in 1vxAI games you play offline, though. You can't be everywhere at once, whereas they can.

Or can you?

that's why me and culverin are hacking at ideas for a more potent UI.
with the UI with the power to hold a planetary system in your grasp, you can be everywhere at once.

Except that it's not a problem. The "million units" things is nothing more than a technical goal, not something intended for Gameplay.

Mike

Sounds cool but to me is only viable. Vs ai vs other players

Stupid phone >_<


Vs other players that would severely tip the scale in your favor for getting off planet first

Rise of Nations had a similar concept.

Basically, you could have the AI assist the player. It could do everything, it could respond smartly to attacks, it could build economy, etc. Pretty sure you could use it in multiplayer too.

Seriously, it's an amazing idea

It basically turns the game into Game of Thrones. You decide to build a huge army to attack your opponent, but your forces abandon your cause halfway through the march and desert, to raid the opponent ineffectively somewhere else.

You decide to build a dock near a lake. The AI overturns your decision to build a navy in order to build a fishing fleet in addition to your farms.

It's really fun from a roleplaying point of view.

It's particularly helpful for new players as well - it means you can focus on micromanaging troops and perfect that, rather than getting bogged down in build order. A useful tool, but like you say only if it doesn't completely replace the human player. I'm not really in favor of the AI completely replacing the human player.

I guess from a macro-management point of view, you should be able to tell the AI to respond intelligently and effectively to economic raiding and build what it needs. (i.e. build defenses, build more economy, etc.) But if some AI controlled node becomes a center of economic strength or troop production, there's something wrong. It should signal the player that there is a major attack going on, or it needs many more fabricators than it currently has, or something.

Essentially I'd give it a command limit - it can command no more than 5 fabricators. At some point, it can command no more than 10. The upper limit would be something like 50 fabricators, and it would only really do stuff related to what it is. (e.g. if it's a small mining base in the middle of nowhere, it will just build mines. You have to manually tell it to build defenses to defend itself, and then it won't do much. When it's attacked it may increase that infrastructure, but only enough to deal with the existing threat, not enough to deal with a major battle. At some point it will tell you to manage it, because it's too major a part of your economy and production capacity, or there are too many battles being fought there.)
I personally don't think that the AI should be able to build a base for the player based on a build template set by the player. That's basically a keyboard macro. I kind of like it from a "well, it means you can focus lots on studying your opponents strategy and trying to figure out what he is doing" perspective...

Or if the game involved an arbitrary huge scale, where you did have a small galactic empire going, and worlds were beginning to develop their own subculture and personalities.

I think you guys should face down your own wishes..... someone gets off planet before you and lets ai eco away on New planet and your enemy comm is free to micro on starting planet and quite simply crush you with no feasible hope of recovering....... don't think you guys would enjoy being on the receiving end of that action. Theses suggestions effectively make off planet first a win every time.
Against ai different matter since the ai always has the micro advantage

Off planet first is going to be a win every time anyway. Just queue up the first unit you transport to build an ordinary base (metal, power generation, bot factory) Queue the first 5 units out of the factory to build lots of metal. The next 5 build lots of power generation, the next 5 halleys.Vastly increase your production on your main planet, start flooding the units into the enemy base, and then drop an asteroid on their commanders head. I can do that without an AI microing for me as is.

Yes you can but your focus is no longer on home planet, giving your opponent a chance to destroy your initial bank. Or say you're like many ppl I've played who send a unit into space and forget about said unit.... both situations provide an opportunity for a comeback for the person who didn't go first. Also in most games when someone rushes orbital they usually lose..... with anautomated ai partner to expand your eco with no worries all you have to do is watch the home planet and crap out units to crush your foe who is trying to balance both eco building and fending off your now relentless attacks

Seriously, AI can be more hindrance than help. It has a tendency of stealing resources from important projects for non-important projects.

I have a series of screenshots of the new, updated AI, failing to win a match.