A possible alternative to multiple factions

Hello folks,

I realize multiple factions will not be present, probably ever, in PA. However, in the beta I noticed, that on the long run player variance is still needed to keep the game deep and interesting enough. So, I would like to suggest a simple solution: a simple trait system, in which players have a set number of traits available (all open from the beginning, even 10 traits would be enough), from which a player would choose one or more, depending on how many traits are implemented. My idea is somewhat based on the civilization creation of Empire Earth, but of course the details and trait design would have to be built from scratch to fit PA's game mechanics and meta (in my mind, traits that don't boost a certain strategy type in particular (but all strategy types instead) should be the norm, such as decreased % fabrication times et cetera).

Any thoughts?

Not a good idea in my opinion. Traits can easily cause massive deviations which are hard to balance and therefore something people end up disliking. I like the mirror system because your advantages primarily stem from skill and decisions, not your faction or trait. I'm not sure if factions will actually just be visual and have no bearing on gameplay.

The problem is, it will result in another chess, that is, a game in which the biggest skill factor is memory of all the different preset predetermined optimal moves, except that this time it looks like great sci-fi and and you need some micro to keep things going along. Yes, predetermined choice based variance such as factions or this trait system I'm suggesting could end up terrible, but in my mind, first off, a trait system such as this wouldn't be that hard to balance, and secondly, the result of a well implemented variance enhancing system is worth far more, at least to me, than the price we could pay. Then again, if the intent is to create a casual but vast game, the story is different.

Just some thoughts, I will write more later as the discussion continues on and I get more time.

You insult chess, and the significance of micro, macro, decision making and attention in the amount of factors they introduce into an RTS. It wouldn't be another "chess" at all. There would be plenty of different valid strategies that'd interact differently even in a mirror match (chess has tons of possible strategies, even though there is a little centralization). TA clones such as Zero K are good proofs of how optimality with enough varying routes isn't possible to pin down on a single strategy.

I did not say strategic variance would not be present in any scale, nor did I say that the micro and macro dominant in the RTS genre would not be present. My point was, that, even if single matches could end up very interesting, the problem of preset optimal builds could even be far worse than in SC2, since variance will be of a very small scale. Of course, I come into a RTS from the standpoint that I will want to play it seriously and semi-competitively, so I am biased in that sense. I will not want to play a game for hundreds of hours if every match will be quite the same in the end.

There is a reason why this new LotR MOBA is a flop. Variance between games is needed to keep the game deep, and predetermined choice based variance is, in my mind, the strongest and deepest tool for achieving this.
If nothing else, Uber should at least implement units more deep than [speed x, fighting stats x where x is a bit apart from the general value, counters x].

Edit: By the way, will the 4 different commander types/skeletons have game mechanical differences? If they will, then this thread is mute.

SC2 is boring and ends up with the same metagames that vary very little between each other. There aren't going to be preset optimal builds except maybe in the very early game. More units are going to be involved, and that'll change the game considerably.

That's why I haven't followed my friends into competitive SC2. I my self don't like it at all.

Let us hope, then, that they add enough uniquely designed (from a game mechanical perspective) units to mix things up.

I think we can all agree on this.

Uber has said there will upwards of 100+ unique, different units.

This.

Some sorts of traits would pretty much be the same as a faction, just with a different name.

As DeadStretch mentioned, Uber has said there will be 100+ units in the game at launch. Maybe more added after that. I think there will be plenty variety in the game.

earthred,
I disagree with your suggestion. I believe this is counter to the design philosophy of Planetary Annihilation.
I don't have the exact quote from Mavor, but he said something along the lines of having all cards on the table.
If it changes the game, it needs to be built and can be killed.
It should literally be on the board.

So if you want variation, I would say give it to the players.
If you want a faster fabrication time, make that a structure that speeds up fab time.
If you want 5% increased health, then make a building that does that.
While do not agree with either of those choices, I believe that would be a better implementation of the core idea you are suggesting, that more variation = more flavor in the game = more interesting.


I am hoping this game becomes a total success, and Uber is able to develop more factions.

We shall see how it goes.

I'd like to see PA remain pure RTS. As has been advocated again and again by the devs and community-at-large. The game is largely about economic power; about who can grow and keep growing whilst fully utilising all that growth. This does not preclude a strategic gameplay element at all, far from it.

It means everyone is on the same playing field, no 'unit experience' or 'special abilities' that interfere with core game combat mechanics and cheapen the experience.

I'm still worried about unit variety. If this game's unit interactions, unit balance, and overall unit design don't get an overhaul soon, this game's units will quickly end up like SupCom's, but without those 10 or so unique units each faction had.

Agreed, but we also need to remember Uber has Post Release plans supposedly, so if things are not great right at release, it should get better with time.

Mike

Waiting until post-release to do a complete balance overhaul for the entire game is like baking the first layer of a cake, bringing it to a party, setting it on the table, and then baking the second layer.

You need to stop reading into things I didn't say, I never said they'd ship with the current unit selection and balance and fix it later, I said if it's not great at release it will get better, not that they'll ship a POS and polish it later.

Mike

In which everyone will have access to as it should be the only unit that not everyone will have is your commander if you have the other versions

MushrooMars,
I'm not too worried, not yet anyways.

I think Planetary Annihilation, like SupCom and TA before it is building us a very fancy sandbox.
This sandbox is then used to allow the players to explore emergent behavior and tactics.
So much in balance won't come until players find exploits, then they nerf those, or buff other units. It's natural part of the game post-launch. Think about it, Forged Alliance is still being re-balanced by the community.

Do keep in mind that the most important part about this game is that we are no longer fighting on a single 3D plane.

We are dealing with a 3D-Sphere (on planet), then a 3D shell (orbital), then all that Multiplied by the number of celestial bodies. Those are some really core mechanics that need to get flushed out before anything else.
The interaction and mechanics between space-races, orbital attacks, the KEW (kinetic energy weapons) needs to be flushed out before we can even start looking at things like adding more variety of ground and air-based units.

Ground and air units have already been done to death, it's old hat, and for the Uber guys, it'll be a (relative) walk in the park.
They have plenty of time to add in heavy bots, hovers, transports and naval.


The "one faction" issue to me is probably the least important part of this game.
Uber is shooting for the moon here.
This game will be make or break based on the other stuff.

If the game does well, I would say another faction and more unit variety would be something the could easily find financial backing for.

According to the Beta Livestream, there will be a unit suggestion thread soon. I would say Uber is definitely aware of this, but ultimately what they've accomplished so far is borderline inhuman. I think they have plenty of problems and things to do even without adding more units, so we'll see how much stuff they add and what they add.

two game changers still need to be released: the Unit Cannon and the Asteroid Mega Unit (AKA: moving asteroids into orbit around a planet). The asteroid megaunit having a side-order of interplantary nukes.

Unit Suggestion thread? I'd imagine it be a heck of a lot more organized to have a Unit Suggestion forum section. That way it's easier to find and read ideas. At least I think so.