Factions/Unit Set

I had this idea: how about a sub-faction system? Evreyone has the same basic units but can ad one or more subfactions (with a few units each) to that basic army. these subfactions have a specific theme to them: stealth, speed and so on.
With subfactions you can customize your army to your favorite playstile, but having one is not requerd for victory as you stil have a large selection of units in your base army.
Having one army with 300 diffrent units also is possible, but I would lose the oversight, and still use only a portion of the units (maybe I'm just bad in strategy :mrgreen: ).

PS, I had this idea of an old game named: Emperor battle for dune (wich had 3 factions and 5 subfactions, and a lot of good ideas, but mediocrate execution)

PPS, I am dutch so sorry for bad english :?

Making every matchup a mirrormatch sounds to me way too boring. I liked the variance in SupCom, if i think about playing with Aeon all day long against Aeon... meh.
And please, dont understimate the 2,2 Mil. Surpreme Commander cost 10 Mill like 6 1/2 years ago, it should be able to make something of equal quality 6 1/2 years later with a bunch of programmer who worked on SupCom and know how things have to be done, even more when u think about the fact that they dont make a campaign.
And i dont get why they waste money on orchestral music anyway, nobody is going to play with the ingamesound for the hours one game alone needs, how good it might be.

without upgrades, without factions, everything what can make your style individual will just vanish. You will be locked on a couple planets, but facing the same situations over and over again. Because people have just no choice to make something new.

Would be nice to see if you have a pre-gamestation, where u can choose from ~250 units and ~120 buildings like, u know, 100 units and 50 buildings for your commander, which will be accessable for him while the game progresses. That could give each commander a unique role in teamgames.

All teammembers using the same unitpool would destroy the idea of teamwork again.

and btw: One faction doesnt mean theres no "Scissors/rock/paper" -system, because this system is the basic for every RTS. If the enemy has one kind of unit you cannot beat, the game is broken.
Or it comes down to "Who has more units?", which is probably the most boring setup a RTS could have.

I'll never understand why people want LESS, if there's 250 units, why not bring 250 units?

First, SupCom had overall very low level unit variety between factions, aside from units that really stood out like the Aurora in T1 many faction's units were basically interchangeable. If you were to combine the SupCom Factions into a MEGA-Faction, you have a lot of overlap you'd be cutting out, off the top of my head I'd say you'd prolly be left with a faction consisting of about 150 units, not the 400 you might think.

Beyond that there is the fact that even thought each SupCom Faction had about 100 units, it wasn't really 100 units because many were done in triplicate, 3 extractors, 3 generators, 3 of each factory, 3 radar, 3 engineers and combine that with the Power gap between tiers you could count on one hand the useful units in each tier, that's not variety.

What PA aims to accomplish will actually provide variety, using 2 Tiers with as basic gameplan of T1 being Basic and T2 being more specialized. To use my favorite example, Anti-Air units. T1 is you basic direct fire AA, very much like the T1 AA from SupCom, it's overall average in almost every way. In T2 you get options thought, you get the AOE Flak, which trades some raw damage for Area of Effect, making it very effective against swarms/gunships but you also get Missile AA, it has lots of damage and long range, but has a slower rate of fire.

Out of the 3, none of them are strictly the best, each has strengths and weaknesses. Just apply that across all the unit roles and you'll get some great variety. I've always thought about it like this, if you have 2 players doing different strategies, they won't have to use any of the same units between them, to me that is the Ultimate goal, we'll prolly land a bit short of that but even making it only halfway there is still a heck of a lot more than many RTSs accomplish.

As for the Orchestra, well it wasn't part of the core budget, it was a stretch goal that we helped achieve, frankly I'm glad we got it because an Orchestra is miles ahead of the synth stuff that can be done now and is really going to help give PA a lot of character. Also you should be more conservative about the claims you make; "nobody is going to play with the ingamesound for the hours one game alone needs" Not only is it foolish to speak for EVERYONE(you certainly don't speak for me!) but you assert that games will takes hours, and while it is possible, not all games will take that long. I'd even wager that the desired length for the "average Ranked" game to be around 20-40 minutes.

Mike

Because this will give everyone the opportunity not to only go for a unique style, but everyone in a team has his role when no other has the same buildings and/or units like you do.

PA has a many buildings which are kinda the same as well. Radar, energy, factories. I actually didnt know when we talk about "100 units", it includet buildings as well. That makes the unitcount for PA a laughingstock, actually.

Even though you might be right with that point, i dont know if i am happy with the fact that T2 units are going to be specialized T1 units. It will reduce the possibility of different armies bei far. Think about a battle on a gas giant, where probably only air is going to be played - when both sides have the same ~4 units to choose (because lets think about: T1 air to air, T2 air to air with single target dmg, T2 air to air with multitarget dmg, T2 anti - Building unit), the fight CANT differ from any other fight you have on gas giants. It will only be the same over and over again.

I knew the "you cant speak for all" sentence would come. Even in 20-40 minute 1on1 fights most player are playing with their own music, so it doesnt matter how long the actual game will last.
I may understand that character may be important - i guess many people have the music of Starcraft, Age of Empires (to stay on RTS Games) in mind, but honestly, i played TA lately to try it out, since i never played it, and the very first sentence was "YOU CAN PLAY THIS GAME WITH YOUR OWN MUSIC", why break with this as successor.

But forcing you to select only a portion of the total available units doesn't HELP variety, it forces it while at the same time actually decreasing the effective variety. In a game that takes place across many different planets with different biomes, you'll want to use different units in different biomes to take advantage of the unique characteristics of the biomes. If you force players to selected a limited number of unit all that will happen is they'll pick the best of every unit type(Land/Air/Naval/Orbital) to make sure they have enough variety so that they can always be capable of fighting, what happens if you skimp on Naval units and you end up on a Water planet? You just screwed yourself over by Limiting the Player's selection instead of giving all the tools available.

Maybe if you were to only consider the ALPHA's current unit count, but that'd be a silly and shortsighted thing to do so I'm sure that wasn't your intent. It's true that PA will have 2 Tiers, and many buildings will be shared between them, but but when you start looking at the details you some some important differences. For example Factories, it's True PA will have 2 tiers of Factories but because they're actually separate structures, unlike SupCom's Facs that you just upgraded to the strictly better version, and can only build the units of a single Tier you'll still be building and using both throughout the game. If we don't include structures then even SupCom's unit count goes down as well, UEF for example only has 46 'units' out of a grand total of 96 units and structures. If PA goes with the proposed plan, thier Unit-to-Structure ratio will be at worst the same as SupCom's(given that PA will only have 2 tiers of structures as opposed to SupCom's 3) and even then because there will be more units that are actually useful at any given time the ratio would be even better than it's face value when compared to SupCom's

First, we don't know yet Exactly how Gas Giants will work, there are many theories, my favorite being the GG's themselves only supporting Orbital units(in particular the satellites/stations used to such up HE3) and the actual combat will take place across the large number of moons/asteroids that GG's tend to attract.

Either way, I think you're missing the forest for the trees, can you provide other circumstances where the variety will be worse beyond Gas Giant gameplay?

I'll give another example of potential Variety, Amphibious units. There are 3 Amphibious unit types; Hover(over the water), Surface(like a boat) and Seafloor(along the bottom). Hover Units might be quick, but more fragile in combat, Seafloor would be slower but more robust in combat and harder to intercept(required torpedoes/underwater weapons) while the Surface is a bit of a middle ground, it's slower than Hover units, but as tough or tougher than the Seafloor units but they are much more vulnerable compared to the Seafloor units.

It's not that the game will FORCE you to listen to the game's soundtrack, but that doesn't mean there SHOULDN'T be a soundtrack either, and frankly, Orchestras or bands or ensembles are just better when compared to Synthetically created music, it's part of why groups like 2 Steps from Hell have such amazing tracks and create music for all kinds of trailers, movies, TV shows and more.

Mike

Okay, can we all agree on one thing? Variety is good. Can we agree on that? Do we have any people who believe that variety is a terrible thing?

Because there is a special place in hell for you.

Only if you agree that actual variety is better than fake variety (the latter being what SupCom had).

OOOOOHHHHH :evil: it's on nanolathe!

just read this viewtopic.php?p=764513#p764513

I actually had already some fun Naval battles. Having a stingray out is forcing the enemy to get his feet wet as soon as possible.

Yeah, of course can agree that variety is important, one way or the other. But right now, i cant see that there will be variety at all.

I guess it is okay when all people use the same unit pool - but in that case that pool must be pretty huge. Units for different areas, grounds, gravity, purpose etc. - (I cant see a working wind and gravity scenario right now, but lets just think it will be includet)

It is important to get the Idea behind an RTS game. It is not to just making the best from what you have - but having the possibility to CHOOSE what in your oppinion is the best in any situation. If you have only 1 unit which is on a normal planet good against tanks, and the enemy builds alot of tanks, you have no choice. You just do what you have to do.

PS: BEST imaginable case would be, if you have 3 types of ground anti-tank units (like 1 normal Ground, 1 for Lavaplanets and 1 for high - gravity planet) but even though every tankunit has his special advantage on his ground, they have another advantage on other planets. (Like Tanks which handle high-gravity well have a higher speed on lower-gravity planets or somethin like that)

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I'm coming in just to say this:

Good variety is good, but good variety is hard to achieve.

And I suspect that's what the whole thread boils down to.

I think one faction is enough.

Good goodness is good, but having two or several sides with nearly identical units as in TA or SupCom is pointless. Plus in this case, the few "differences" units were breaking the balance between factions.

Different races as in Starcraft is nice, BUT it's mainly about rock/paper/scissor mechanics and it doesn't really fit the PA "blueprint".

Modders can make new factions.
(See TA - Excess / Zero Gardians of Kadesh for a good one)

Super evolved AI's would now that peace is better than war anyway,
so I suspect in the end PA will be about sending flowers and gifts from planet to planet.

HIPPY ROBOTS !

That is exactly the problem with forcing a player to only use a portion of the total available units, it boils down to them needing to make sure they cover all the unit types then need and reduces the effective options they have in any given situation.

If a player wants to limit himself, he can do that on his own.

Mike

In Supcom there were units of each type for every faction. (Meaning that there were many units with the same icon in the game). Even thought they were made for the same purpose ,they varied in a lot of ways.
They varied with: skins, the way they move, the way they shoot, with speed, if they have splash or not(some artliery like the UEF t1 mobile artilery had splash, while other did't),if they hover above the ground or not, if they can move under water or not, if they have shields or not, the ammount of damage they deal, the rate of fire and hitpoints they have.

Therefore all units under one icon may not be treated as one unit.

The diversity coming from factions is especialy admired under circumstances when players are forced to use one or two unit types ,as ohhhshiny stated earlier.
You probably don't realise, but it's the active players that this will have the greatest impact on.

If you have at least one player from each faction in your army ,then you have access to all units in the game. Factions are no longer a limiting factor when armies are implemented.

When it comes to mods the truth is simple and plain.

Agreed 100%.

Additionaly modded units are often not balanced well, not to mention whole factions.

PA must have at least 3 factions,or this game will get really boring,not talk the imba units (whats the fun 5 cruisers vs 5 cruisers,micro?)...
And comon,old rts games on 2000 year have + then 1 faction, wy his now on 2013 so hard have + then 1 faction ,im really confuse,plz some 1 tell me wy im rong!
In SC we got all kind diferent units, to all diferent factions,and the game is from 2007.
Not talk Forged Aliance that got so mutch units that i can´t count them all ,i now this is a diferent game but the spirit keeps the same...i think?

WILL. NOT. FEED.

Yes, not all units of the same type are the same but that doesn't mean if you combined them all into a single faction there wouldn't be any redundancy. Look at the LABs, yes they're technically all different, but not in ways that create diversity. They all have many many elements that are the same or nearly the same. if you were creating a Mega Faction, you'd only pick one of the LABs.

Lets look at T2 Tanks;

UEF: Pillar, Riptide
Cybran: Rhino, Wagner
Aeon: Blaze, Obsidian
Seraphim: Yenzyne

The Wagner, Rhino and Obsidian Get auto Approved for being unique. The Riptide, Blaze and Yenzyne all function in a similar Manner, Hover tank, they are all basically the same role just at different places of the power scale. The Blaze is the stronger candidate because it fits in better due to being more of a counterpart to the Obsidian.

Then you have the Pillar, it's kinda the odd one out as it has not real purpose other than being the jack of all trades, which is fine when you don't have all the other options, but when you do there is little point to it being around, it's better that you teach the player how to better take advantage of unit compositions so they can play more dynamically instead of always building the Pillar(except when you need say an Amphibious unit)

How about the T2 Mobile Missile Launchers?

Oh look they have the same Cost, Build Time, Maximum Range, DPS and other barely different stats like Minimum Range, HP and Speed.

You'd pick one, no need for 4 units that all do the exact same thing.

I could go on, but I think by now the point is clear, yes SupCom's factions had diversity, and it worked alright in that you were limited to the units of a single faction, but that's not to say you could just lump them all together and have a faction where each unit has a role unique to it. As I said earlier in the thread, yes you could combine them all and you'd have a "Bigger" faction, but there is too much overlap and redundancy to leave everything in.

SupCom also had a reported budget of 10 million dollars, PA raised about 2 million(after KS and Amazon Fees) on Kickstarter, while not the whole budget for hte game(Uber is supplying some as well and there is all the Pre-Orders and Upgrades that happened after the Kickstarter) but it still doesn't have anywhere near the same budget.

Also FA added about 100 units to the Total, but about 90% of that was for the Seraphim, only a handful of units got added to the Existing 3 factions.

Mike

The idea is that instead of some number of small factions, there is one large faction with all the units. It fits the lore (everything is the best), balancing works better, and you have more varied play (haven't you wanted to use two or more units from different factions in SC? Also, this makes the game more interesting and there is more to do: there are less limitations on what you can do.)

Edit: The post above mine said it a lot better.

In FA in a match 30/40 min i use since the ,T1 Land Scout Spirit/ Mole/Snoop/Selen,
To Experimental Aircraft Carrier Atlantis.
I use all resources i have and all units i have there ,thats wy we can´t stop play it!
Its because that epic battles and tactics ,that we only have because all that diversity off options.
Don´t get me rong plz,just try to explain.
Iff i want to play PA long time im try to see what will keep me here...
And even a zergling group off t1 in the right places, with the right trasporters, with the right Asf to suport the transporters, can make nice damage in the resource points off enemy field.
I see here too many players start only focus on simcity gameplay,and works for now ,and that scare me like hell, that kind gameplay,since i hate stay home like in sup2
For the thoughts i see here , start to be obvius not many players here have play SCFA

I think teh problem is that you're play style isn't representative of 'proper' play. The fact that you claim T1 is useful throughout the game is proof enough of that.

The Problem with SupCom is that Tier 2 makes T1 Obsolete and T3 makes T2 Obsolete. So yeah, on Paper, you have 15(UEF) land units you can use, but you only use a small selection of them at a time.

Within a single Faction, within a Single Tier, there is very little ACTUAL Variety.

Mike

That is a big pile of false, If you watched casts you'd know t1 land spam is alot of the time batter than t2 land spam. and t2 land spam better than t3 land spam because of the sheer number of units you can get for the same ressources.

If people here would stop blindly dissing Supcom, we'd let up, but you guys force us to come back by saying things that just can't be let slide because of their astronomical amount of wrong.

You don't play pro level setons or other on FA currently, that's fine, just don't go pretending you know how it goes.