I never suggested otherwise, I believe they should be fragile to promote raiding and sniping them. The proposed veterancy only increases their metal output, not their HP.
A problem with that is that the metal points in the core of your base would become so valuable that re-expanding to replace fallen extractors would quickly become a waste of time. Another problem is that veterancy ends up making key metal point loss extremely unforgiving. The game would end after one successful attack takes out 2-3 key mexes. In my opinion T2 metal extractors as upgrades should be done away with and replaced with more specialized metal extraction like extracting metal from mountains or other terrain features. They would not give you more metal than a T1 extractor but would increase the effective metal points available to you for a higher cost. Another option could be for T2 metal extractors to be the only extractors whose metal income can be used on other planets.
Sorry, my comment came across wrong - I knew you weren't speaking of HP, I'm just not a fan of an arbitrary increase in mex productivity, and believe that raiding should be promoted purely via other methods (such as mex HP & low dps units & defences).
Perhaps just combine the Mex with the Metal Maker for the Advanced Mex? Rather than the extremely complicated variable 'Overdrive' mechanic that only uses excess energy and make it into metal, make Advanced Mexes use a flat amount of energy for a flat amount of metal like a metal maker. The limitation would be that they must still be made on metal spots and will produce double the metal of a Mex from that metal spot. So they would not be strictly better at all. They would make your energy economy much for fragile to raiding in exchange for the increase in metal output. Make them EXPENSIVE energy wise so that if you run a deficit your pro-rated metal income is harmed badly, as well as requiring a larger base in terms of more footprint used up from generators. This would mean no infinite economy of SupCom by tying metal making to Mex's, as well as giving a risk/reward to choosing Advanced Mex over Mex.
that's not really how adv. MEX overdrive works. it works more like a metal maker with diminishing returns that is tied to metal spots. each additional one then proportionally reduces the rate at which your return diminishes. so it's not a situation where you want to always replace T1. Here's the system in zero-k: https://code.google.com/p/zero-k/wiki/Overdrive As you can see it also introduces some logistics (breaking the grid), we don't really need that and could get away with a simpler system. I agree overcomplication is a legitimate concern, see: spring metal overlay. MEX veterancy is a good solution if we're going with TA-style MEX development. Sure it may be gamey, but the game is going to feel gamey for a variety of other reasons (see: unit, planet, terrain scale). Regardless of what system they go with, an appeal to TA or realism is a poor justification alone. One benefit of MEX veterancy over Spring-style reclaim-and-build is approachability, no new players are going to mess up the T1->T2 eco transition. And understanding (proper) economy transition is necessary to be competitive in these games. MEX veterancy streamlines this transition, for I think, a minimal loss in depth. I'm also not sure understanding this sort of thing is really that fun. That is essentially what advanced MEX already are. They're supposed to use more energy less efficiently and produce more metal. In Supreme Commander and TA however that reduced efficiency was insignificant and never factored into staying T1 beyond build order. Even if the inefficiency wasn't insignificant it wouldn't address the underlying problem which is that investment gambits (additional units vs better economy) aren't that interesting of a choice to have. Even the economy development in Company of Heroes forces a meaningful choice between more of one resource or another, which impacts playstyle.
Not necessarily something I'd like to see, but here's another idea similar to overdrive mechanic that I've not seen anyone come up with yet. What if fabber units could assist mex's and improve their output? Presumably there would have to be a diminishing returns rate applied to the amount of additional metal extracted per fabber assisting. It would have a similar outcome to ZK's overdrive system (players can continually invest in upgrading their economy with diminishing returns), without the generated complexity of making metal production heavily dependant upon energy production. As I said, just an idle thought. I think the system as it stands will probably be fine once the balance has been honed a bit.
I'm not saying that Eco is (as planed) going to be imbalanced... I'm saying it's going to be boring. I agree. Planly and simply this is a good choice for PA. But making T2 a direct and unabashed upgrade over T1 was what PA was supposed to be staying AWAY from. For example: Why do all T2 Factories, Structures and Units cost more than T1? If a unit were specialised its Statline; its speed, health, weapon armament and so on would generate optimal and suboptimal situations in which it engages, thus limiting its usefulness. Its cost therefore should be roughly equal to a T1 unit, which can perform relatively well in many situations (though never as well as a T2 unit at its particular specialisation) --- T1 units are (in my mind) brute force, blunt trauma weapons. They're not necessarily "cheap" or expensive, neither "high" nor "low" damage or even particularly "slow" or "fast". They don't excel at a role. A T1 Assault bot is a line breaker. It's tough (but not overly so) and can punch a hole in just about anything it encounters. It's "Standard" infantry... it does the job. A T2 Bot gives you different options. It's not brutish, nor blunt in its operation... it's a scalpel. A "line breaker" T2 bot doesn't exist... there are more subtle variations: The "Long Reach" assault bot fires non-homing projectiles (rockets or more traditional artillery... or even a heavy Microwave beam) from a great distance; it's flimsy and can't defend itself since its weapon is slow to fire and can't track mobile enemies that flank it swiftly... but it cuts deep into a static defensive line like a hot knife through butter. The "Heavy" assault bot is a beefy, blocky, moving Brick **** House. It trades speed, turn rate and weaponry power for a metric tonne of health. A more mobile, fluid defensive line can't pick off a group of these bots and they are able to make it through the defenders lines to the main base without casualty. What they can't deal with is an entrenched position, since they're slow and easy to hit with artillery even when moving The "Shock and Awe" assault bot is more of a stormtrooper or rapid response bot. It moves very quickly and has a short range attack capable of devastating damage. These bots don't serve a purpose in breaking defensive lines head on but are swift enough to take flanking positions and bring down the thunder on undefended or slow to respond static emplacements. None of these T2 bots should cost much more than the standard T1 Bot. When you place equal numbers of T2 and T1 units against each other the T1 bots should come out on top if you put them into a straight meat-grinder. It's when you use T2 bots effectively that you reap a greater reward than the Metal it cost to build them. T2 units should do one thing AMAZINGLY well to the detriment of all utility in other roles. T1 units should have something they're designed for, but have the ability to fulfil multiple roles in a pinch. --- Edit: I think you actually said it best in one of your own posts yourlocalmadsci
I'm completely with nanolathe on that. T1 should remain a viable choice even in late game. T1 units should be at the core of every army, supplemented with T2 for special purposes. T2 should not only be bigger, stronger and more expensive versions of T1 units. I like the bot example quite well there. I'm not sure how I'd go about T2 economy, increasing their output might be fine if they're not much more resilient as well. This would make them an especially attractive target and demand special consideration when placing them. They could even explode quite violently, taking down nearby structures and units with them. Choosing between T1 and T2 economy needs to be a strategic decision, not only one based on whether I can afford them. Overdrive for T2 metal extractors might be an idea if they actually procure less metal then T1 if energy is not sufficient. Otherwise if T2 is only bigger and more efficient, adding overdrive to T1 could still make them a viable choice if surplus energy is available. T2 energy plants could make use of the environment to make more energy than their generic T1 counterparts. For example, they could burn trees in their vicinity or make use of wind or tides when placed in elevated positions or along beaches. They also produce less energy when not placed properly. What I'd also like to see is some more specialization for T2 radar. I assume this is already discussed elsewhere but I think it fits quite well in here as well. T2 radar should not only be more expensive and have a bigger radius. For added specialization it could e.g. have a longer reach but detect enemy movement only in a narrow arc.
Why should there only be one T2 Radar, hmm? Preconceptions are our worst enemy when it comes to original thought. I'm glad someone is listening to what I'm writing though. Keep your eyes peeled for an upcoming thread...
No reason there should only be one T2 radar or anything else for that matter. There could also be one with a much larger radius that only updates radar blips in intervals, just to name another idea off the top of my head. I'm certain people will come up with a plethora of specializations for any building/unit type if given the chance. Uber just need to take their pick out of the many suggestions, preferably while trying not to sacrifice depth for complexity.
Here's an idea. Instead of being just bigger metal extractors, T2 MEX can only be used to access deep metal points. Deep metal points are rarer, and can only be tapped by deep metal extractors, but give more metal. That way you will have a bunch of T1 extractors, but then a few T2 extractors once you get to T2. Deep metal points are a dumb name and somebody should think of a better one, but it fits the General/Specalized concept. The same idea might apply to energy plants. T2 generators might only be buildable on top of hydrocarbon deposits like in SupCom. This would prevent you from just forgetting about T1 economy buildings once you can afford T2 ones.
Another to add to the lists of mex "specializations": T2 mexes are built over t1, or built on their own, but REQUIRE energy, while t1 does not, and would mostly shut down on a power stall. Both would still require metal points. I'm thinking they produce about 1/2 what a t1 would in the case of a stall. This would make t2 something to aim for, but make t1 the safer alternative in the case of placement OR upgrading. If you upgrade a t1 mex, you have to accept that it will produce less if you can't power it. Similar risk if you place a t2 mex. Placing t2 mexes would increase the strategic value of hitting your power plants, and you would have to put more resources into defending them. Actually, this may already be an idea. Working nights now is killing my memory
I liked the approach in C&C: Tiberian Sun's GDI Power generators (stop groaning, I'm serious) : Instead of adding additional turbines, you could add additional drilling shafts for T2, T3, Twhatever. Of course, the main difference between TS and PA is the lack of a central construction hub and a UI for doing it, but queing up additional "thumpers" on an extractor up to the respective builder unit's available building-techlevel sounds pretty awesome. in my mind, at least.
This is most likely what's being done, except instead of having to make multiple thumpers, you just make a T2 addon for the T1 extractor which adds more thumpers.
quick post don't know if this has been said before but in Spring we had a widget whereby if a t2 constructor were to right click a t1 mex it would reclaim that mex and build a newer one on top the metal spot in one micro, I believe this is the kind of thing that should happen later on in PA Peace
exactly what i meant. i may have formulated it around 4 corners to be more precise, though. T1 will be the base building available from commanders and T1 builders, while the general T2 and the additional "box" of thumpers can only be build by tech 2 units - an upgrade would obviously cost less then and be completed faster, too.
yup building over sounds good, can get the nanolathe to kind of build over the old as well. mmm upgrade some units mmm
Upgrading structures sounds good, especially for resource generation. Depends how mass structure-generation is handled when the game is actually post-alpha (how much micro is demanded to command n sets of fabbers to create the relevant resource generation structures).
