T1 to T2 Metal Extractor without reclaiming?

I'm splitting this thread off from the discussion of other SupCom features. The Metal Extractor (mex) is a special case that deserves to be looked at separately imo.

Unlike other buildings (factories, power gens, radar...) the T1 mex needs to be build on certain spots (soon™). There is no choice but to upgrade it at a certain point. Reclaiming it and replacing it is a necessity and adds only micro and idle time to the game.

For comparison: A T1 power generator (PG) can happily keep working till lategame and is of use. It provides a buffer in case one of your T2 PGs goes down, it gives you scouting information if you spread them out a bit and it can even be a meat shield in case of an attack.
The T1 mex however is just in the way at a certain point.


There are two ways to improve the mex situation:
• T2 fabbers can directly build the T2 mex on top of a T1, basically upgrading it
• the T1 mex can upgrade itself to T2 like in SupCom

This comes really down to a choice in flavor. Do you want a T2 fabber to be necessary to upgrade a mex?

(I might change my mind on this paragraph... :3)
Personally I think SupCom way would be ideal and the mex should be able to upgrade itself. Why? We already have so many other things that require our attention that I think we can do without the additional micro of queueing up T2 mexes with fabbers. Sure, you can start a T2 economy without actually having T2 fabbers this way but that adds an interesting choice, doesn't it? Can you support the upgrade that early in the game?

Please keep in mind that PA is different to TA because we might have to manage the economy on more than one celestial body! In TA we had one flat map. In PA we might have a couple of spherical maps to control. That's more like playing 3D chess against Spock. Every bit of removed micro helps.

Thank you for your attention. Please leave only comments regarding metal extractors in this thread!

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Id prefer to have the Fabber build the upgrade, I always disliked the Upgrading mexes on the building.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Its important that mass extractor upgrades can be queued otherwise its a micro task and that means the best clickers win. Its easier to do queuing if it requires a fabber to build the advance one over the top. I cant see how it can be done with in place upgrades without veteranacy type ideas.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Thinking that upgrading mex involves fast clicking is a little silly. The key was REMEMBERING to do it, and you could do it in a few seconds even if you were slow.

But yes of course queueing should be in, that is obvious. I do agree that mexes need some way to be upgraded in place. You could have a UI element that popped up when you selected a group of mexes that could give you controls on how to upgrade. This is a little too automated for my tastes but it would be handy to have. You would still have to balance your economy with the upgrade which would keep it a challenging task.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Upgrading a mex without reclaiming it before is definitely important. Coming from SupCom it feels (will feel, currently it doesnt matter) very very annoying to always first remove a t1 mex to make a t2 mex on the spot. I'd say that PA should at least try the style "t2 fabber makes t2 mex on top of t1 mex". It sounds interesting to me. If it turns out that it doesnt work it could be changed to plain old upgrading mexes just like in SupCom.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Comes down to personal preference. I like it better without fabber but the important part for me is that I don't have to reclaim or destroy the T1 mex.

Hi duncane, good to see you!

Just like in SupCom. You need to be able to afford the upgrade or your eco will stall.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

The problem I have with the mexes upgrading themselves is that I can't que the mexes to upgrade in order. It's either you select all of them and upgrade, stalling your economy; trying to drag a selection box to select a batch of mexes to upgrade, which can be hit or miss at times, or selecting them individually one after the other to upgrade. By having a fabber or a group of fabbers shift-click-que to upgrade mexes around your base, you can selectively upgrade mexes procedurally and in the order you want.

What would be cooler is if the option to upgrade mexes was in the GUI itself, therefore eliminating the need to hunt down your mexes (of which I often forgot which mexes I upgraded in supcom). You could also remotely upgrade mexes on other planets. The GUI option would have to be intuitive and easy to use, in order to correctly choose how many and which mexes you want to upgrade.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Thinking about it in that way might actually help and might be very useful and applies to a lot of building such as defense towers and construction yards.

It might be worth looking into whether its possible to make is so T2 fabs can upgrade existing T1 buildings/defences to t2 by spending the difference between the t1 and t2 equivalent in upgrading.

This way we aren't adding millions of tiers to the game and we arent making the game unfair in any way I can see because it doesn't add anything extra to the game only decreases the time needed to build multiple building and increases the space you have to build I don't even use most of the t1 stuff as soon as I get to t2 so the building and space become redundant.

This also means that you would have to get to t2 the traditional way before you can think about upgrading the existing infrastructure as you will need t2 fabs to do it.

I seriously think this might want looking at as a possibility as I don't see any drawbacks.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Please stick to discussing the mexes and the mexes alone. We have several 'I want all the SupCom things back' threads and this thread is ONLY about the mex.

Yeah, the more I think about it the better I begin to like this option actually. You could queue up all the mexes in an area and then go elsewhere without looking back. I might actually change my mind on this one.

PS: I changed the title a bit to make clearer that this thread is not related to SupCom in general.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Remembering IS micro. Remembering the first one is fine, but the next 10 while you are fighting on two fronts is not.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Why is it that none of the good threads have polls? ;_;

In this case I would prefer a self-upgrading T1 mex for simplicity, however, the main issue with SupCom is that because Mexes took so long to upgrade, unless you use an additional 4 T1 Engineers to assist it, you temporarily loose a LOT of mass. The reason for this was because the mex doesn't start paying for itself until it is finished upgrading.

I hope Uber finds a way to avoid this. I personally believe that your job should be to protect your economy, while your army of semiautonomous robots handles the accounting.

For me the important part is not so much the remembering but the need to move your camera back to the next mex and click upgrade. That becomes annoying and distracts you if you are fighting elsewhere at the time.

The good thing on the SupCom method is that it is easier to predict the resource flow necessary for the upgrade. If you have enough metal int your storage you know you can afford the upgrade. You can start the next upgrade when you have enough metal stored up again. It's harder to predict if you queue up 10 mexes.

The SupCom method is better for new players, the T2 fabber upgrade it better for experienced players imo.

I would prefer to read your thoughts.

I feel like if we get a way of quickly painting down extractors to build in the first place, then we should also have the ability to paint down their replacements with an engineer.

If it can upgrade itself, what prevents me from building the cheap t1 mex and upgrade it directly to a t2 mex (in late game ofc) instead of spending the buildpower to build the more expensive t2 mex?

Also, how would one queue up multiple upgrades? With fabbers, it easy and done in an established way.

Personally I like the solution of just building over the t1 mex with the t2. It keeps with the theme of the game (buildings only get built by fabbers). It is reasonably simple with no additional micro and can be prevented by killing enemy builders.

I find merits in the arguments for both:

T1 upgraded in place by fabber
- more control over the order

T1 upgraded in place by itself
- occasionally you can't get a fabber to the location

Any reason why being able to do either would be unreasonable?

IOW: why not allow both?

upon thinking about it, i am starting to like the fabber approach. it wold force strategic use of fabbers and also let your enemy take them out before getting to their destination, thus denying metal.

i like it alot

Agreed with OP. I'm still holding out that we might see something like the Zero-K Overdrive mechanic where additional energy increases MEX production at a diminishing rate of return. Right now energy consumption on MEX doesn't feel like a necessity as much as a means of punishing players who are already energy stalling.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Indeed I think the the Mexes should be upgrade capable but you must have a T2 Fabber initiate and complete the process. I also like the idea of taking the difference between tier 1 and tier 2 Mexes and thats the cost of upgrade. This way you could fill the queuing requirement someone listed above as well as having the mexes be upgraded so it doesnt stall your econ. Less micromanagement like people wanted.

Yes this has a supply line feel.

Re: T1 and T2 Metal Extractor more like SupCom?

Hi ;-) Thanks for remembering.