Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamemaps

As I was playing around with ozonex's PA Fan Engine project, and was thinking how PA controls, UI, camera movement, zooming, and such should work, I realised that with single camera view you just simply can't see the whole planet at once even if you units do have visual on both sides. You would need either atleast 2 camera angles or a fast way to switch to opposite view.

I can't think of a any efficient and fast way to command units around planets or how to show visual intel of what is happening even around single planet (currently my biggest fear with the game), let alone all the objects in system

For example in FA I could just zoom out (or keep camera zoomed out on split screen / second monitor) and with few scouts and radars you could see pretty much everything happening on the battlefield or command your units to move where ever you wanted on the map. I haven't seen system that would work as easily with spherical maps or even think of a one.

Best I can think of (for minimap / full camera view) is having two separate views where other camera is at all the times on the opposite side of system / planet / asteroid so you can see everything at ones without need of any rotating. Of course you could also have just some shortcut key for turning single camera immediately to the opposite side of the system / planet, but I doubt that pressing that all the time wouldn't be too fun.

Has anyone seen system that would actually work with rts games that can be quite fast paced at times, or alternatively can think of a one?

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

There shall be multi windows support.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

In TA, if you had low resolution, you could see like half your base at one time but it worked out just fine. Apart for seeing the whole planet surface at once I'd be happy with SupCom style zoom and auto tilt.

However, I'd like a toggle button for free camera.

As for intel, I don't see how that would work differently than on flat maps. With added intel satellites, if course!

EDIT: Also, when moving the view with arrow keys/border push I'm thinking the planet will rotate in the desired direction, instead of literally panning.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

In TA, even with low resolution you had your minimap that was rather capable of showing everything you should be able to see. With spherical map you can't see what's happening on the other half even if you had units there unless you could config planets to be bit transparent so you can see units behind the horizon (if you can actually see them)

It's hard to get intel from or command units where you can't actually see. It's quite similar to if you were able to see only half of your minimap at any given time, regardless of where your actual intel structures and units actually were..

Most likely it will.

(I'll use FA as a comparison because I thought it did really well with commanding units around and seeing around with zoom)
Let's take following scenario for example: You want to select some units from A and move them to the other side of the map B (opposite side of the planet in PA)

In FA: you zoom out, you see all your units and structures and their exact location, you select group of units from A and command them to move to B, zoom to B if you want to

But the quite possible issue with PA without some new features: you zoom out, you see only half of your units and structures since other half is behind the horizon, you select units from A and command them to move towards horizon, it will take atleast 2 zoom in + zoom out actions before you can see location B

For me the biggest issue would be that I wouldn't be able to see all my units from minimap or zooming out, because they would be behind the planet.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

I don't quite follow you. If something is beyond the horizon, why not just pan the camera in that direction? I don't think a minimap will be a problem either, there was one in Spore which worked really well. A map of the earth is flat, too, come to think of it.

I'm probably wrong, but it appears as if you expect the game to be unable to rotate the planet and move the camera in more directions than zooming.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

There is no Minimap. Neutrino has confirmed this fact.

If you want a "zoomed out" map to look at you open a window within the game, much like the split screen option within SupCom, and zoom it out to the desired level. You may have as many of these secondary windows as you like.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Or there can simply be a "rotate" button that rotate the planet by the desired angle each time you press it.

Example :
"Bright side" of the planet is currently displayed (the most you can see at once with only one camera and full zoom-out).
Press the magic button and bam, the planet rotate 180°, you now have a complete view of the "Dark side".

With a few other angles/or configuration, it could be a useful tool for for non multi-screen/camera players.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

What about giving the ability to a viewport to be at the exact opposite position of your current view?
Then put the viewport in a small corner of your screen and it's done.

Sadly it only work for one planet.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

On big map/planet panning takes time. It takes several seconds to move camera from one corner to another in 20km x 20km map, when clicking correct location on minimap would take only only click or alternatively zoom out + zoom in action.

Thank you for mentioning Spore. RTS elements on round maps and flat minimap seems to work rather nicely. Such a simple solution, but this is what I get for thinking and worrying stuff without decent sleep. Flat map allows fast camera movement, unit selection, and simply seeing everything at once.
I just wonder now how that works with multiple planets, moons and asteroids. When you zoom out, your minimap also zooms out showing automatically multiple minimaps that are relative to their represented celestial bodies? And when you zoom in, minimap also zooms to that object.

No no, not at all. What I meant that zooming in/out is in most scenarios faster than panning camera, especially on bigger planets.

Problem without flat minimap is that there is no fast way to move camera from A to B, nor you can't see anything on the B side until you move your camera there.

That worked in SC and FA because you were able to see everything when fully zoomed out. With spherical maps you see less than half of the map regardless where your actual intel units are. And constantly rotating camera around trying to figure out what's is happening on each sides of multiple planets doesn't sound too fun.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

warbaque, There is NO minimap.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Understood. I read your comment only after I had already posted my last response.

I just hope there will be some sort of way to see entire planet when zoomed out. Preferrably usable and intuitive system.

That could also actually work. Put one viewport on your second monitor, that mimicked your main camera movements and zoom level, was centered on same spot your main cameraview, but would be from completely opposite direction. If you had planet zoomed out, you would see on your second view the planet from opposite side. And if you had zoomed out to system, centered to sun and you saw all planets, moons and asteroids on your main view, you could see the opposite from the second one.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

With two separate viewports, yes there will be. There will however, be no "unwrapping" the planet to let you see all of it with just one camera. Neutrino has been quite adamant of that fact.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Has there been any talk if those viewports would be capable of doing what I described in my previous post? Mimicking other views and such?

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Forcing a secondary camera to act in a specific (in this case opposite) way compared to your main camera?

Not yet.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

It's one of those features that would be nice to have, but as long as UI, views, and camera options are moddable enough, that should be rather simple to script in.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Well, I'm pretty sure panning will be quite fast if you zoom out a bit. Take your image for example. At 2, you simply rotate around the planet with the arrow keys and then zoom in again at B. I expect that would take about a second or so.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

Zoom out, hold middle mouse->drag mouse, zoom in. BAM, other side of planet. (I imagine)

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

So you guys know the minimap in SupCom was just another render viewport with some optimizations applied right?

Not having a traditional minimap is a bit different from not having functionality that is equivalent. I have a bunch of ideas on how to convey information and navigate. We'll see which one(s) work out.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

How I see it, is that if viewport can work as a minimap with certain configs and optimization then it is definately able to fill that role. I don't even know what "traditional" minimap means in this context, except that map is usually tiny and filled with colorfull little dots. All I've come to expect from rts minimaps / maps are that they can show entire area at once and are capable of showing where my units and structures are, and enemies of which location I can see, regardless of where they are on a said playable area.
Can you actually call it still "mini"map if it fills one of your displays completely? Another matter of semantics I think.

Could you elaborate what ideas you have currently in mind, or do we just have to wait and see? Can't wait to test those out

I think it's quite essential to be able to easily see entire planets at once, be it with single (not likely if "There will however, be no "unwrapping" the planet to let you see all of it with just one camera.") or multiple viewports.

Re: Camera management and intel gathering on spherical gamem

I'm sorry, but I talked about it about six months ago.