For Backers Only: Megabot Experiment

i like the overall concept and size,but i'd much more like it if like many have said before
that it would have some kind of purpose other than just spamming rockets and lasers around which is fine,but such a big unit needs to have some kind of game mechanic or feature that will make players want to use it,and ofcourse proper drawbacks so it wont be an instant game ender.

I like the size. I like big seize differences of units in general. It can be a super-sized constructor for all I care.

Big, boxy, kick ***. I can imagine the missile/laser spam emerging from all those boxes and it feels good. I think the scale is fine; it's only as big as a factory, you don't want a mobile unit to dwarf the core building of a base.

Even if you're not including an impractical krogoth death machine in the finished game, at least make sure the engine can handle it, because people are surely going to mod them in.

And if you do include it, remember to balance krogoth/krogoth fights so that they kill each other nice and quick. Watching superunits trade fire for more than 15 seconds feels like watching a peashooter contest.

That looks SICK!!! I imagine it slowly stepping on units cause it's so bad ***! Actually that made me think how unique it would be if the megabot would even step on its owner's units that get in its way cause he's just so awesome. It's like, "I don't even care."

As long as it doesn't turn in the 'hero' unit that is the most powerful unit in the game that you can only have 1 of because it guarantees victory, I'll be happy. It should definitely feel threatening but it shouldn't be a 'I win' unit.

I like the scale. Looks perfect for me compared to the other units

The scale is quite good, but I'm not sure how it will navigate through the small chasms shown in the livestream images. Also, it needs way better feet (placeholder, I know) otherwise it will walk very wonkey .

I would also like the ACU to be able to take refuge inside one of these megabots. These bots should be quite expensive though.

it should at least one-shot the commander with those guns ^^. but it's epic. perhaps adding something like a machinegun/chaingun/gatling could be good; or a flamethrower (dreadnought from WH40k)

From a scale point of view I think it looks good, could possibly be a little larger.

As for the whole debate of whether or not experimentals / super units should be included into the game, I don't feel I actually have the place to say that they should. The only opinion I'll give is that in most circumstances I thought experimentals worked well in supreme commander.

I think it's great that Uber have listened and responded to requests made for the game (such as linux support) but that only goes so far. This is a game sparked by Mavor and the team's vision for what a modern day, large-scale RTS should be and we as backers chose to support that; we shouldn't hijack it and force things one way or another on subjects Uber is hesitant on going through with.

From my perspective this experiment only exists there's still a number of people asking for super units despite Mavor not really supporting the idea; I'm not really sure if that's okay, but I suppose this is why it's an experiment.

So I've always thought that super units would be cool to add to the game eventually. Like I said this was almost an original stretch goal.

I think my primary concern is that if we do them I want them to be good and differentiated from the other units. Apparently most people want them to have special abilities that are different from other units which adds to the cost.

At the current time we are concentrating on the base game and just letting super units sit in the back of our mind.

I get lost in anno for a day and this pops up.

First thought: More Dakka! MWahahhahah!
(seriously, I have to make an effort to not use the Giga Fortress in RA3:U)
Second: Bigger? Maybe.
Third: Tiny legs.
Fourth: Top heavy.

Skimming through, I'm all for crushing units, blocked by terrain, deployment limitations and not just bigger weapons but special.
>removes cat from computer<
But considering balance.. any bigger and it should crush friend and foe alike.

On the issue of size, you can eliminate the issue with modular, or pre-build, design. Basically it rolls out of the factory defenceless, either as a special construction unit that becomes it or separate bits that then need assembled. This has the added effect of dealing a massive lead up to the deployment giving any other player(s) time to prepare.

It'd have to be slow, obviously (probably with four legs). But limiting to one planet would render it prohibitive to deploy unless you face an impenetrable fortress which has no means of leaving the planet.
Instead, it would need to be recyclable or able to be taken apart and transported in bits.

To balance weapons, what about minimum range. With it's counter being to stop shooting and try and punch them or something. Meaning that while in theory it's a kill all weapon, a proper counter can be achieved.

I do think that it is a bit out of place just looking at the bots around it, but depending on its function it could be just fine. Such as if it were to be an artillery bot (okay, well missiles) then it would be just the right size, but if it were a strictly direct fire unit then it is a bit too big. A combination of both would mean it is a tad too small.

It is a very interesting idea, it would be kinda cool if there was a four legged missile crawler super unit, or a satellite that freezes targets below it , that would be awesome.
Good work so far, looking forward to the beta.

will there be any super unit(s) for harvesting? Thinking for plant crackers.

okay, so this time i think i read everything.

first, the size is perfect to my opinion i already said it but i say it again =)
I do not comment the design since it's just a placeholder.

I think everyone agrees that megabots should not be an "army of one" and basically should have a poor maneuverability that makes them weak against swarms of units. the apparently easiest way to do so is to make them unable to fight what is behind them, and rotate quite slowly. the armor can also be weaker in the back, but maybe the damage localization has not been implemented, anyway, i don't think this is necessary either.

however there still is the problem of getting close to it, the fatboy in supcom is kind of weak regarding HP, but it has such an insane range and firepower that you could never come close to it with regular units. someone said something that could essentially be summed up by "balancing range with HP", for example long range low HP, middle range middle HP, and short range high HP, i think this really makes sense, but we should be careful with long range weaponry to avoid too much turtle war.

regarding the spammability of these, apparently most people agrees that you shouldn't be able to spam many of them, and that's precisely why i would like to bring up again the idea of "commander exoskeleton" :
first, the concept is neat. i'd even say that in some way it makes sense for such a behemoth to require special components so refined and comlicated that they are only used to make commanders.
and second, i feel like it could make balancing issues a lot easier. i was thinking an emergency ejection or teleportation system would be necessary, but actually it woudn't be a good idea : either you take gamble and risk your "life" by attacking with your main commander, or you can play safer and wait until you can make a second commander to use such a monster.


most people agree that they should have "special weapons" which do not mean "special powers", for example an aura of damage buff would make no sense in a robot war, but you can be as creative as you want for the weapon (but careful with fire rate, opponents have to be able to get close it, and circle around to take it down).
something that would be really fun is some kind of tractor beam that attract an enemy tank, and then throw it back on another target with excessive strength, a bit like the overloaded gravity gun in half-live 2, or as someone said, oversized uber-cannons able to blow up anything including mountains or other megabots in one shot (but at this time you need to find a way to ensure double-KOs if two happen to meet, otherwise that would be a bit unfair). well anyway, they are awesome, and need awesome weapons

i think the last point was transportability, it shouldn't be able to be transported by any kind of carrier given the fact that it's essentially a building on legs, but maybe having some kind of portals you could build to transfer it or any unit to another planed would be interesting, this way you first have to establish a beachhead on a planet, and hold it long enough to build the portal and swarm with your millions of units and eventually a few megabots, but that's an other story.

****

so, to sum up everything in a few lines : i understand that making a megabot is a lot of work, but i do believe it is important to have at least one in the release version of the game so that players who want huge units are happy. in order to attain this "objective", just skip as much things as possible and go for the safest model in terms of balancing so you don't have to spend days and days on it, you will still be able to change and refine it after launch.

here's my vision :
- high/very high cost in resources (to avoid rush)
- powersuit type (high risk to limit spam, if feasibility is ok)
- moderate armor (will be slaughtered if alone)
- short range (cannot blow up turrets without taking hits)
- very high / insane ground damage per hit (compensate short range and overkill against normal units)
- average fire rate (cannot blow up an entire army alone)
- small/nonexistant splash damage (cannot blow up an entire army alone)
- low maneuverability (get in its back to destroy it)
- limited anti-air (just to have something)
- trample over everything (except buildings, detailed lower)

concerning the details, i would go for a weapon being easy to make (i guess you can forget the gravity gun for now :lol: ) go for something cool and impressive that makes big "booms", the oversized Uber-cannon could be a good candidate for example.

To conclude, if i understood correctly the most problematic part is actually the pathfinding, i do not know how things are progammed and if what i'm proposing is applicable of not, and maybe it doesn't even makes things easyer for you. the idea would be to make it trample over everything, and anything ending under its feet is crushed flat. friend of foe ? doesn't matter. make it behave just like the battlefield was entirely devoid of units, it could just take into account structures, terrain and other megabots, the rest can be flattened :twisted: (normal units take them into account though).

My worries = at ease

The one thing I noticed is that it's similar in size to the largest boat, which is going to be weird if the mega bot was way better stats.

Not to be an annoying pest about this, but what's your stance on making super units require a commander to run? The exo suit idea that's been bandied about. I assume it would be a tricky implementation, but from a design stance is it any good for PA?

So, I'm one of those "lurkers" that Neutrino mentioned earlier, but I'd like to say that I really like this forum. I think it's a great idea, and I appreciate the fact that the developers are interested in what we, the consumers, think.

On to the megabot...

Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance is my favorite RTS, hands down. So, I love that experimentals are probably going to be present in this game, too. Personally, I don't care if you guys just make a bunch of different models and stick as many guns as possible on them. I don't really need "special abilities." Also, I don't think you guys can make these experimentals too big, gameplay wise. As long as my machine is capable of running it and I'm capable of controlling it, I'm good with whatever you guys come up with.

As for balance, one of my favorite things about SupCom: FA was that there was almost a perfect defensive counter for nearly everything. A radar installation, a T3 shield generator, and 10-20 T2 or T3 (if you're UEF) Point Defenses? Yeah, you can take that experimental. No problem. Oh, you keep getting bombarded by Tactical Missiles and you don't like it? Build Tactical Missile Defenses (doesn't get much more explicit than that). Problem solved! Each of these things, in their own right, were REALLY powerful, but they could still be beaten. It was a really fun challenge. And in regard to these defenses, the trick was to build such a variety of stuff that they couldn't possibly stand up to it all. I think, as long as stuff like this is kept in place, everything with balance will be fine.

Anyway, that is my humble (and inexperienced) opinion. Thanks for letting me share it, guys!

The mega bot image in the OP has my vote of confidence.



I'm just thinking real quick...a lot of naval units are basically mini-experimentals in games like this. If it were just balanced to be about on par with a normal battleship I don't think there would be any issues.

I think scale is good.
It seem capable of crushing T1 units but not sure about T2 units. Perhaps if it was intended to crush T2 units too it should be a bit bigger. But not too big that it would make the commander crushable !

In terms of the implementation debate I think some of the following points could be considered/combined when designing one:
-Deployment Restriction
-High Specialiation
-Experimental behaviour
-Garrisonable (walking unit bunker)

I had an idea that uses both deployment restriction and experimental behaviour where an experimental build site also acts as a stasis chamber. As the experimental leaves the chamber it only has limited time to be used before stalling on the battlefield unless it is returned to the stasis chamber where it can be upgraded to the next level (maybe improved operation time or speed or power).