For Backers Only: Megabot Experiment

My tone varies wildly on a post-by-post basis. I don't know which one you dislike. :lol:

This thread has been quite a demonstration of the general approach most of this forum's denizens take. A whitebox of a unit is released and the thread instantly devolves into "not big enough" vs "too big" without any discussion about role, functionality, or possible behavior for the unit. (bobucles excepted- he raised the questions but did not provide input to answering them, and did not stem the tide)


The Krogoth

In my opinion there are two ways this unit might be functionally designed. The first, and most obvious way which most likely is the default idea, is to make a Krogoth. A huge unit with a very extreme amount of HP, and with multiple weapons with very high damage. There are three major problems with this approach. Firstly, a Krogoth-type unit needs to be so prohibitively expensive and cost-inefficient that it will be essentially useless in a real game. To do otherwise is to make late-game battles the equivalent of the card game War, with counting Krogoths instead of cards. Secondly, a Krogoth will need an absolute weakness rather than a more interesting subtle/soft counter design. Such a huge absolute power amount would otherwise translate too reliably into ending the game, making them overly appealing in terms of winning-game-cost-efficiency, if not in combat resource efficiency. And thirdly, if a Krogoth is designed "properly" then it will virtually never be seen. Adding a Krogoth into the game consequently adds relatively little depth, since the Krogoth is essentially a non-factor in strategic terms. Either that or it breaks the game.

The Krogoth approach is what most people think of when they discuss "super units." And while perhaps there is a place in PA for a single main combat super unit like a Krogoth, on no account does PA need many such units. Exactly one to make available a certain resource concentration is sufficient.


The Force Multiplier

The second method, and in my opinion the superior method, is to create a super unit to have specialized, high-power functionality on a mobile chassis. Functionality which cannot be adequately priced to fit a smaller unit chassis, used in aggregate.

The best candidates for this type of functionality are force multiplier weapons. Snipers, MRLS systems, large transports, highly mobile direct combat forces/reserves, etc. However force multipliers are also not the only available option. A mobile bertha would also qualify as a "super" unit just by its necessary price tag.

A good RTS example of such a unit is the Zero-K Catapult, which is essentially an MRLS battery mounted on a single mech. Ordinarily I would say this is the kind of functionality best suited to designing a minimalist rocket launcher unit which can be massed for greater quantity, but the tight, concentrated spread over a single target area means the Catapult actually does an excellent job, where a group of smaller rocket launchers might be ineffective unless micromanaged. A large mech with this huge rocket launch capability is obviously strong, but you can't just rely on a ridiculous HP pool making you invincible, and ridiculous direct fire weapons making the entire area around it a killzone. It also is pretty awesome visually; see Macross Missile Massacre.

The key to the force multiplier approach is to stay away from army-analogue super units. A super unit is NOT a one-unit army. A "super unit" is a functionality that an army would not otherwise have, but in terms of actual raw direct combat firepower they are actually quite poor. A Krogoth type unit which is just a massive amount of HP and DPS leads to very boring and deterministic combat where it is involved, and deterministic+strong is a dangerous formula, forcing the Krogoth to be weak and inefficient, and thus infrequently seen.

However. The question posed by the devs, ignoring the rest of your well-thought-out post, was, in effect: "Is this big enough for you?"

EDIT: As for the rest of your post, I definitely agree that if "super" units were made, they should be in the "force-multiplier" category. I just couldn't put it so eloquently or back it with actual data like you did.

As previous posters have stated, the design is a bit top heavy. I think making the legs a bit longer would make it look like it can move faster than a waddle. The arms seem a bit big and unwieldy. So making it about a 1/4 at most taller would be the right size in my opinion with most of the height increase coming from increasing the leg length.

Re: Backers: Gentle reminder on the forums

well just posted a reply but it didn't appear must have not pushed the post button

but the idea of big bots or experimentals is a nice one i like that because i like to see big units because they are easier to read visually and they can have completly different weapon systems and bigger weapon systems.

are they big and hard to take down? well thats the point but put enough units against it and it wil go down, is it a walking bot well use bombers and gunships is it a flying gunship well use AA or fighters or anti air/ground gunships

and bigger units dont have to be assault units they can also be transport units like in Blackops the experimental transports so you can transport lots of units for an assault or for reenforcements ( holding back a fully loaded transport protected buy local aa towers )


can it be a bot or can it be a fire base, why not both look at the Basilisk( reminds me i have to check out the new blackops last time i played was a year ago, want to check out the cybrans and whats new)

now i dont want to push this thread into supcom talk i'f rather stay on topic but thats wher i saw big units or i have to think of the striders and king cobra's and kodiaks from Heavy gear wich are on a smalller scale but they did have hovering battleships wich cruised over land ( great games those if you like mechs check those out if you can make them work with your system )

Now cheers and back to topic

Edit :: aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooo wrong thread sorry guys admin please edit and delete ill copy and paste this it was supposed for the megabot thread

First post here
The size seems to be good, bigger it would be too much, smaller it would be too close to standard units.
As a big Krogoth fan, I am glad to see a super robot unit, and the design is already pretty cool as it is.

About the balance aspect, I am sure we'll have an option "check the box if you want super units" while we create a game.
I like the Idea to not allow it to move from a planet to another, it would be too easy to take planets after planets after getting a couple of these, if they are too powerful. And as the same time, they can be used as a sentry: "I can't move them to another planet, but bring it on if you want to take this one, I am waiting !" (Saying that I imagine my big Bots pointing their arms to the sky.)

To balance, you could also use planet restrictions: like only available on big planets, or metal ones.

And please continue to show us the early stuff, it is really interesting to see it evolve, andfor us to give you our feeling/ideas/point of view etc.

My opinion is that SUPER units should be limited to things like unit cannons, nukes, and orbital bases/bombers (or whatever ).

The reason is that each of these units has a massive disadvantage in the way it has to be used.

Unit cannon can only "move units" and is stationary. Nukes are late game and can be fairly easily countered. Orbital bases are probably very expensive to build and to fire and are probably very vulnerable (i.e you can't stick a meat shield of units/base in front of it).

A super unit, that is just a scaled up artillery/tank/assault bot unit, is not faced with this same level specialization and is in essense just a big overpowered unit the diminishes the value of "basic" land units.

My point of view is that we should leave each of the theaters of war to the units designed to fight in them, i.e. "basic units" anything that leave this field of thought is just a redundancy that reduces specialization and discourages strategy. We all saw the effect it has on supcom 2 most of your strategy late game was always to spam as many of these "experimentals" as you could. Leave the realm of "uber units" to nuke and other highly "specialized" units.

A lot of questions incoming. These are the first three and contain sub-questions.

These are not questions directly asked to the Developers. I'm not expecting definite answers yet. I just what this all here as a thought exercise.
Size, Blocking terrain and LoS.

Will my smaller units fire at this Mega-Bot as parts of it are exposed? It is obvious that it can't hide behind a treeline or rocky outcrop, but do my units understand that? and will they shoot at any part of the Mega-Bot that pokes out of cover?

If they do not, this gives an unfair advantage to being large, as it is not punished for being so.

Conversely, having a commanding view of the bettlefield should increase not only the line of sight that this unit provides, but also a longer range for its weapons. It also means that is can shoot units from "over" their cover, increasing the area of land it can deny the enemy.

• Can any of this be mechanically simulated?

Size and Durability.

Will large units have massively bigger health pools or will Mega-Units simulate damage differently by having thicker "armour"?

While being a bigger entity does afford some degree of immunity from smaller units, it does not make you invulnerable. Furthermore, any common weakspot on a smaller unit is magnified ten-fold on a unit ten times larger.

Does a Mega-Bot reduce incoming damage by a percentage? a fixed number? or does it simulate being more durable by simply expanding the HP pool? Are there weakspots that can be exploited, such as an increased amount of damage taken from behind?

• Is there a separate damage model for Mega-Bots? and how is it implemented?

Size and Power

An increase in size is generally accompanied by an increased ability to carry a larger, more powerful gun (increased space for power-plants to generate power for the Laser/Increased size of munitions/etc)

If this is the case...

By increasing the power of the gun carried how is the invalidation of smaller units avoided? (as was posited in the original design document)

Is this done purely by cost?
With cost as the only limiting factor a strong Econ invalidates the only limiting factor on producing hundreds of these robots and superseding all previous "tiers".

So how else can it be limited?
Hard-capped numbers of concurrent functional Mega-Bots? and how is this explained "in universe"?

Limited computational power to direct such large, complicated robots? Can your commander only process so much information from his robot army, thus capping a maximum amount of Mega-Bots?

Or is there another way to "cap" the numbers of these Mega-Bots?

If there is no limiting factor you run into making all other options sub-optimal against the power of the Mega-Bot... and you have SupCom all over again.

Can there be a "hard-counter" robot that can be produced relatively cheaply that are specifically designed to counter Mega-Bots. A few "T2" units that specialise in destroying Mega-Bots, but are bad against everything else, and thus not "usual" in a normal army composition?

• Are SupCom-Like Mega-bots (mobile assault experimentals) desired or not? And should there be limitations on the number than can be fielded?

---

More incoming...

I've always liked the idea of big super units (I even made a few for TA, way back years ago.) The idea of a unit that's practically a one unit army is cool. Sure, it takes huge time and cost to produce but for the trouble you get the king/queen of the battlefield.

I like the idea of a unit that's got a lot of weapon systems and no obvious weakness. Lets face it, if you're running a military/industrial complex, are you going to build a super robot that's weak against air units? Heck no. You're already paying a fortune for it, and look at any real government project, cost overruns aren't a factor at all. So what do you do? You slap some missiles and AA guns on it and don't even look at the cost! And that's what I'd like in a super unit. It steps on tanks, devastates buildings, shoots aircraft out of the sky. It's balanced out by cost. The massive massive cost. The sort of cost that even the most pro military hawks in the US congress would look at twice. And if you have the economy to produce the beast, the defenses to keep it all safe while constructed, well your enemy either meets your super unit with one of his own, uses an absolutely massive army to try and whittle it down, or, well, sucks up a super weapon fired at him.

As for the scale of the whitebox unit? I'd say it's ok. No smaller, if you wanted to go bigger, hey that's fine too. But since it's a placeholder in effect, no need to say much about it besides the idea of such a unit, and to that idea I say absolutely yes.

I'm actually getting some info from this but more diverse responses would be nice (lurkers now is the time to say something).

Based on the feedback so far I've discovered one things that's fairly valuable. People aren't looking to these units simply as larger versions of regular units, they want special powers. If we were to come up with a design for a few different units of this size they could easily have the engineering cost of many regular units. This is why I originally didn't have them in the design. This is based on my experience building such units on previous games.

So if we do choose to go down this path basically we would have to concept a few including the design side and then make a stretch goal of some sort out of them.

As far as showing raw stuff and taking the heat on the questions I'm ok with it as long as you're ok with me simply saying "don't know yet" to a large number of questions.

Yes, Yes, A thousand times, Yes!

Of course.

Big badda boom! How about a megatank like the Fatboy?

Bigger is better!!! Make it Uber size!

I like it, when I asked for a larger robot that's pretty much what I imagined. We'll see wether this makes the final cut or not... also... IT'S OUR LAST POPE EVER >:O

I like seeing this. I like that Uber has allowed us to see this idea, and I want to thank Uber for showing it to us.

Art / Physical Design: I'm not a big fan of the hip guns, maybe it's better to mount those on the arms. Otherwise it looks great!

Balance concerns: I'm slightly concerned that all of those squares are rocket tubes and this massive thing can put out a rate of fire that makes it difficult to stop except with a massive army. (then again, I suppose that's the whole point. But I don't want to find it's impossible to even get near enough to hit it, that just drives me crazy.)

But honestly I think this unit (or at least one on this scale) should be in the game. Why? Because lots of people are going to ask: Where are the super units? I want stompy robot death! Like TA and SC!

And thus we can point them to this unit. Sure, it's inefficient and it can't move between planets and it requires its own gantry and you have to protect it while building and it makes a huge explosion when it dies but BY THOR WHEN IT ROARS you feel full of AWESOME and WIN. And that's what this game was (partially) about, right?

And then we can all get on with our lives without people whining about "where's my Krogoth/Colossus/MonkeyLord" because we have an (expensive, inefficient, but fun) equivalent.

<yes, I know asteroid bombardment is awesome, but I think people mentally fit that in a different category than super units>

<rant mode enabled>Dude, that's what drove me nuts about Shattered Horizon (FPS in zero gravity). That game was AWESOME FUN until all the regular FPS guys showed up and whined about how you couldn't switch weapons. (The one gun was a sweet hitscan all-in-wonder assault rifle that did everything pretty well).

And the regulars tried to explain to them that you only needed one gun, because it was a grenade launcher and a sniper rifle and a melee weapon in addition to regular fire, and weren't shotguns in space a dumb idea anyway?

But no, the noobs who never did like the game (and who never read Ender's Game and never understood you could float sideways on the freaking ceiling) bitched and bitched and bitched until the company released the FIREPOWER PACK, which killed the one awesome gun and split it into 5 crappy bullet-lag guns that no one liked or got used to. And so these mainstream FPS fans killed the game and then left because they still hated it.

So the mainstream FPS people hated the game, and the people who loved it had their game ruined. What a tragedy.
</rant>

I would prefer that the air/land/sea/structure/space super units be no larger than three times the overall volume of the largest air/land/sea/structure/space non-super, Unless it's serving a special purpose that requires it to be larger.

I like the size and I do like the look of it.

It does read well when u scale it down and makes it look like a "mega-bot"

also it may need a different set of legs.

+1 on the krogoth or something with the "goth" name

Ok.

Don't go there.
Resources are better spent elsewhere on things that lend to core combat. Not pissing matches of who can build the biggest units. And I mean resources of Uber, not in-game resources.

It would quickly disolve into what you see in SC where multi-hundred unit T1/T2 battles become 2-3 'Megabot' Battles. It's cool the first time one is deployed and then it just becomes a few big bots instead of a hundred small bots. Big is cool, but big in number is always more impressive than big in scale.

This I'm cool with at least. I've done my fair share of modding, so I can feel you on where things stand.

Personally, I think it looks great, the new Krogath. As far as factory issue, I think a seperate gantry would be best (if there are advanced fabbers/fappers).

Potential issues with a super -massive mech

*Mobility
-Is it amphibious? If so this may rescue it from being stuck on land or being unable to reach other theaters of operations on a world w/lava. I doubt it could float or be carried by a normal sea carrier.

-If it can walk undersea, maybe make this a potential weakness as well, don't give it torpedoes or naval defense systems so that the opposition has a chance to destroy it at sea.

-Since it does not look like a rocket could carry it into space, the only way for it to move between worlds would be by gate?

-Expanding upon that point it would help to avoid rushing an enemy world with one or more of these if you have to establish a forward base of operations with a connecting gate before their deployment.

-Conversely, would they be able to move between planets at all,even w/gates (they're just too big?) that would make them less worthwhile though.

-I would assume that they could survive extreme temps like their smaller brethren and be A o.k. on lava planets. t would be pretty fricckkiinn awesome to see one of those striding through lava floes firing missiles macross style and using main weapons on the little targets.

-could it step on opposing units to destroy them?

*Combat

-When stepping on smaller units would it take damage if it stepped on an explosive or volatile foe? This would bean interesting (if complex) additional counter to being able to squish foes that get too close, or to turn off weapons to conserve energy.

-Anti Air weapons? If it didn't have any this would provide a good counter for the other player, on the other hand I think it should have at least some AAA/SAM. This could make it a better combined arms beastie, as it would potentially require SAM/AA escort. Additionally to avoid crushing volatile foes a number of little units could help keep the foe away from the feet.

-Anti naval weapons, im guessing none, and it seems to be wise to implement this. If you were feeling very generous maybe a single torpedo launcher for keeping away T1 subs/surface ships.

Thats just my 2cents, as far as I'm concerned, the more Awesome the batter, and thats pretty awesome.