Another approach to Extreme-Scale Units (more inside)

First, before I get the ball rolling: The name. The name 'Experimentals' is purely a SupCom name, and also somewhat misleading (they never really had any attributes of anything experimental). Therefore, this post and hopefully all of mine in the future will refer to these kinds of units simply as some variant of extreme-scale units.

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I know there's been some backlash over adding extreme scale units for various reasons, and something I realized about most of those reasons are this:

They come at the topic from a "serious" standpoint. That is, they're concerned with A: how well the game design holds up with extreme scale units in it, or B: how much they'll be used in sporting play (I'd use competitive but I'm mainly talking about any match wherein the main intent isn't to goof off/mess with things for fun, even if it isn't all srs bznss).

The thing about these arguments against extreme scale units (design easily breaks down when they exist/sporting matches don't generally run to the length that extreme-scale units make sense), they don't address one of the big reasons that extreme scale units exist. That is, that they are really cool and fun to use. No, I'm not going to pull out the awesome quote (partly because I don't remember it), but the point stands. A major use of extreme scale units are in the friendly matches where the intent is to see lots of stuff blow up, and bigger is always more fun.

From my experience playing Forged Alliance LAN mode with my brother and seeing the trend in game lobbies when playing SupCom2, I would argue that a lot of people play these large scale strategy games to smash mass quantities of units, small and large, at each other. And ultimately, if you can't throw doombots/tanks/gunships/artillery shells/etc. at each other, I would bet that the more casual gameplay would get stale faster.

I go in line with that. Large scale units are fun to play and experience. They might help to breake stalemate situations or just be a cool battlefield surprise.

I agree, once you get to the economy level that you can build uber-scale units they obsolete everything else.

What if they required a specific and very limited resource? It would create an important point to fight over, limit their use, and make them into something you don't want to throw away. Perhaps some kind of ancient tech that is consumed in the making of the uber-scale unit, but is dropped when the unit dies.

Sounds like Metal Planets. Could be interesting to have giant husks on the map that you can reactivate so fight for you, and that are disabled when shot a lot so that another player can try to control it.

I remember some older game that did this, although I don't remember which one. But it was certainly a cool feature.

Big units are not excluded, but there's little point with taking a small unit and increasing the numbers to make a big unit. Death balls are always going to exist in some form, and big armies will be rolling over the enemy regardless of the unit scales involved. It's the simplest way to play.

The best option is to allow as many units as possible to succeed in the large army. Big units tend to overshadow lesser ones and scale better at the high end. It was a game breaking issue for Supcom's extreme late game(though not seen in most serious games).

There are plenty of support roles and forays into strange tech that can justify a large platform. Traditional unit roles are best left to standard units, where the player can invest as much or as little as he pleases.

=/

3/4 replies missed the point of the OP, which is:

Big units are really fun to play with, and I think it would be remiss to leave them out because they don't fit in the competitive aspects of the game.

You don't seem to have provided "another approach", in fact you just seem to be saying that you like seeing big things explode.

Big things exploding is great, but not at the expense of the rest of the game (all the problems with obsolescence previously discussed).

The Krogoth in TA was so expensive that there was no point building it if you were trying to win, but the T4 assault exps in FA were so cheap that they decided games far too often.

The solution is therefore to make such units cost in line with the Krogoth.

Why is that not another approach? Everyone else comes at it from a pure competitive/design standpoint, and that's not the only valid consideration...

If I remember correctly, in TA spring the krogath was turned into a surprise weapon, unable to level army's and easily defeated by an equal cost in artillery, it was a sudden assault unit designed to arrive at a bad time and decimate an unprepared enemy base cost efficiently.

But a mass of troops, prepared defences or artillery, a sufficient amount of gunships (That die from it's death explosion) or a direct hit from a D-Gun was a death sentence to the poor mech.

Maybe that's a better application for it?

Semantics by the look of it. I would take a "new approach" to mean a new way to handle something, but you intended it as I would define "new viewpoint".

Purely semantics and not relevant now we understand what was meant.

Because if PA took on ever 'cool' idea it'd be a bloated mess, more often then not, good competitive design is just as good for the "For Fun" players, they just don't realize it.

Mike

I like experimentals because it gives a "hell yea" feeling when deploying one and genuine fear when used against you.

However, Supcom2 made them too much a part of the game. IMO, they should always be Krogoths: if you can field one, you could've won a long time ago. But if you put one in the field, you rip your opponent's privates off and make him run home, covered in oil and feathers in a pink tutu.

IT reminds me of a GREAT starcraft 2 quote:

It seems kinda silly to have a weapon that you can only access after you have won.

There is no point in it.

I saw the Krogoth as a walking nuke. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapons are. When that thing gets inside your base and next to the Comm, you're already dead.

For a planetary invasion, Krogoths would make amazing line breakers. Drop them, sit back, and wait for them to go nuclear. It's guaranteed damage.

I didn't realize that by adding in extreme scale units they had to add in "every cool idea"...

Protip: "If I do it for you I have to do it for everyone" does NOT apply to game development.

I think that experimentals in FA were pretty silly because they had so many weaknesses. Usually in large maps it was difficult to get experimentals near the enemy base. Many times they died without a fight just because they weren't able to counter some units, for example air units. At least make them good against everything so there will be some fighting no matter what!

Also, krogoth looked way more awesome than any experimental in FA. It's good to have few, very good, rarely used experimentals rather than many decent experimentals with stupid weaknesses.

One thing to reduce the use of experimentals would be that only certain type of commanders are able to have them. Other commanders would have some other advantages. Or then just make them more costly.

Have you considered that perhaps you should support them with anti-air?

Seriously come have a go on FAForever and see how weak you think the experimentals are.

What anti-air? You mean ASFs? Sure, I support my experimentals with them. And with cruisers if I walk them underwater.

Read my reply again. I didn't say they're weak, I said they had many stupid weaknesses. I said it is stupid that they can't support themselves against some units for example air units at all. I want them to be able to counter things themselves. I don't want to do ASF blobs just to get some experimentals in my opponent's base. At least if I remember correctly, Krogoth had pretty good anti air and didn't need air blobs to survive.

See that I am talking about larger maps, not about some 5x5 maps.

The krogath had 3 possible AA weapons.

It's man cannons, It's eye laser, and it's cruse missiles.

Now if spiderbots could use their anti-ground lasers and microwave beam on gunships, then we would be having a party!

Not like that. However in Supcom, FA, experimentals are commonly not built.

What i mean is: usually if you can build a Supcom experimental, you're pretty far along with winning anyway. It rarely truly turns the tide. I like it that way. It's for the completionists.