Knocking things out of Orbit

I've recently been playing with a little android app called Osmos HD which got me thinking a bit about how PA could handle KEW strikes, and slightly more interesting orbital mechanics. For anyone who hasn't seen this app, I recommend it as both a fun time waster, and also as a really nice hands on example of solar behavior and collisions.

So in essence, I'm wondering if things like this will be considered when handling KEW strikes. Will it affect the orbit of the planet when you slam asteroids into it? Will it be possible to send planets into a dying orbit doomed to fall into the sun, or knock them out of the system entirely? I certainly hope so. That would be AWESOME!

And for those who are unsure about this, and or want to know a bit more I'll explain a bit about how some of that works, starting with the concept of Prograde and Retrograde. Basically all these two fancy words mean are orbiting clockwise and counterclockwise, although I am simplifying that slightly since Prograde is actually orbiting in the same direction as most objects in the system, and retrograde is the opposite direction.

This is important because of how collisions work. A collision between a prograde and a retrograde object almost invariably ends up dumping them both straight into the sun. In the rare cases where it does not this is because one of the objects is much much smaller than the other, and in this case the resulting orbit is radically changed and becomes much more elliptical which often leads to more collisions later on.

A collision between two like objects however, results in an averaging of the two orbits, making the resulting orbit more round. It is because of these two things, that all systems tend to naturally scrub away the majority of retrograde objects and make most orbits near to perfectly round, eventually.

Now for gameplay in PA, maybe this is irrelevant. But it could be an interesting option at game creation to choose between younger/older systems. Younger systems would typically have a lot more orbits, many being asteroids, or smaller planets, and the orbits would be crazier, and more eliptical. Older systems however would be more what people might expect with more settled orbits, larger planets, and clean simple round centered orbits.

I think it would be really nice to see these in PA. And I would especially enjoy the ability to knock a planet out of orbit sending it either drifting in deep space, or to crash it into the sun. I think that would be AWESOME!

I like the concept of a true gravity driven orbit simulation but suspect it would be going beyond the scope of the game as well as the complexity of what the average player can deal with. I believe the general idea is just planets in set orbits and asteroids that can render a planet inhospitable. I hope I'm wrong though.

I'm pretty sure they've stated you can move asteroids with your bases on, or possibly even planets. Changing orbit or a new strategic orbital position.

I'd post a link, but I can't remember where I read that now. Think it was somewhere in one of the links in the confirmed features thread.

I know in the PCGamer interview they said you could use an asteroid essentially as a carrier. Change it's orbit, fly down from it. Not just use it as a weapon.

Even without a full gravitational simulation, there are a few questions that come up: If you move a planet with a moon, does the moon move with it (it certainly should)? How would that affect the colliding of planets (would said moon drop into the orbit of the resulting wreaked planet? If so, that could cause further collisions with the pre-existing moons). Personally, I like the idea of a flailing, multiple occurrence collision, and the possibility of totally wreaking a planet's milkshake (moons, asteroids et al).

As for knocking something into decaying orbit such that it would eventually ram into the sun, I don't know if the game's time-frame would lend itself to having that actually happen: the martian moon Phobos is in decaying orbit which should destroy it... in about a hundred million years. I don't think the game will be simulating times of that magnitude, so I'm not sure simulating to that degree is necessary. Don't get me wrong, it'd be cool, but I don't know that it should be something in the base game (mind you, from what I've read, I think modding will be open enough to accommodate this).

Yes and No. You're talking about an orbit that is decaying or unstable. I'm talking about the immediate result of a prograde-retrograde collision which is typically crashing into the sun on this very orbit. So I'm not talking about dumping a planet into the sun a hundred million years from now, I'm talking about it happening in less than a year.

Now assuming that the timeframe is bumped up a bit (a year in an hour or two) than yes, this is a very real scenario to think about. But it does raise a balance question as well. Should a single KEW strike be quite that powerful? Realistically maybe it should be, but from balance I can see where that might be debatable.

But there's another angle to consider there too. If we can move asteroids, We can move planets, Building thrusters, or even intentionally hitting your own planet with another KEW and just as easily as you can break an orbit, you could fix the orbit instead. So in my model, being struck by a KEW assuming a retrograde collision (NOTE: arranging a retrograde collision does require a lot more thrust than a prograde collision.) than that means your target is going to get dumped into the sun within the hour (year). And then it's up to your victim to build thrusters, hit his own planet with a KEW, or simply abandon the planet before that happens.

I personally would be all right with all of that. Giving someone a doomsday timer of an hour or so after a KEW strike seems pretty reasonable to me. IF the lack the resources to fix that yet, than that's their problem. I think the whole scenario would be AWESOME!

Maybe you can't move a planet... I don't think the game will have planetary sized engines to move such a mass.

And even so, why are you going to invest a ton of resources into planet engines while you might as well convert those resources to a massive army and finish the game.

People seem to go a bit overboard over and over about this orbital concept.

^They haven't ruled out the possibility of moving planets, just mentioned that it'd be difficult. I think the quote was "it's all about the delta V", so you'd have to really load up on the thrusters (and fire them when the planet has rotated to the correct position, and wait for a long time), but it might be possible. Not particularly smart, efficient or strategically sound, but possible (maybe not in the base game, but I have high hopes for mods).

As for your other point: winning isn't as important as winning with style. Anyone can crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women, but victory by dropping a planet on them is winning with a side of badass.

The whole reason I even start threads like this is because I think it would greatly enrich the game concept by including them. If all you're going to do is slap some 2d maps over some round balls than all you've really done is change the scenery.

Why not just take that one tiny little step farther. Include a functional planetary simulation. It need not be completely accurate with the most complex formulas, it just needs to look and feel right. Now to make that more accessible we punch up the timeline so that a single orbit around the sun takes an hour (or less) rather than an entire year. This way, orbital changes are going to have real tangible meaning in the course of a battle in a way that the average guy can understand and appreciate.

Now, when you crash that asteroid into a planet, you're not just damaging the planet and any structures on it, you're also radically altering the orbit of that planet.

Done this way planets aren't just scenery anymore. Now they're an integral part of the game.

Outside of our solar system, it is colder. There is also radiation. Maybe it could be that if you knock a planet out of the system, it would simply destroy unit on the planet. More like an EMP radiation, but still. Once you've gone out of the system, it's going to take an increasingly longer time to reach the system, so might as well die off, right?

They have stated you'll be able to alter orbits

I love kerbal, but a single kew destroying possibly every planet in the solar system by chain reaction, seems unbalanced.

I would like that it gets to looking more realistic. Without being real. As in the kew pathing and collision.