Procedurally generated ranked maps?

One of the things that concerns me is how procedural map generation is going to interact with competitive play. The generator's settings could have a significant impact on how the game plays out. For example, in Starcraft 2, one of the biggest things which has changed the game is the new maps. The original ladder maps all made it very hard to secure additional resources and effectively forced very short rush games every time. But the new maps make it easy to secure extra resources and promote long games, which is much more interesting and skill-based.

I'd like to know if we can have fixed maps for competitive play. The idea of not being able to fine tune the maps for best results kinda scares me.

if you play age of empires online, the maps are procedurally generated, but still there are some basic maps that always are similar built.

There is one map set called "mountain crossing" for example,w hich always will have the same basic layout, only the ressources are slightly "random". Then islands will also always be similar. I think something like that should work. Maps that are random, but not 100% random

I have mixed feeling on this one. On one hand, I understand where you're coming from, and any imbalance, even just the perception of imbalance is a killer for serious competitive play.

On the other hand, I personally really like the idea of the maps being random so that nobody has them memorized. I hate being bored of fighting on the same exact map all the time. Having the maps random each time feels a lot more natural to me and promotes more strategic thinking rather than just memorized build orders all the time.

As for making and using fixed maps for e-sports, this is not a problem at all. As I understand things the plan is to have a random map generator, but also have a map editor and the ability to save maps. It wouldn't be that big of a deal to pre-generate a set of fixed e-sports maps picking ones that people can agree on that are well balanced and of an interesting size.

But, I'm not sure that's a good thing.

In my mind, E-sports would be a lot more interesting with random maps because of the strategy element. The usual RTS answer of a small pool of fixed carefully balanced maps leads to memorized build orders. In my mind, this kills or at least waters down the strategy element to these games and replaces much of it with memorization rather than actual strategy.

Random maps may actually be better for e-sports than you realize.

They could even try a middle-ground solution, locking in certain element during generation, so like in Configuration A you know it'll be a water planet, with 50 metal spots and 2 moons, while confiuration B is 2 Terra Planets(1 per player) each with 1 moon, 1 Lava Planet and an Asteroid Belt ect ect

So you'd have a good idea about the system and your available options but there'd still be some random elements to it.

Mike

Ranked was often a matter of memorising how to play on each map in the pool. Although this was mainly due to the fact that there were high value wrecks worth more than your total mass generation over the first five minutes on a lot of maps if you knew where to look (and often the physical size of a wreck or rock wasn't a great indicator of its mass content). I'm not sure how much learning the maps would be worth if none of them had any high value wrecks.

There would still be some as after all you are still limited by your economy, and knowing how many facs you can run off X Mass spots is important along with other thins in teh same line of thought.

Mike

The plan is to allow maps to be saved out after they have been generated. So if you find a great map save it off. I considered saving only the seeds but that implies we have to keep the algorithms compatible over time which I would rather avoid.

I'm not sure how that really applies to the topic Neutrino, are you saying that Ranked maps would be static, just like the norm?

Mike

There was also a map editor announced right?

So if someone really wanted to make a tournament map (like the old Big Game Hunters map that every single star craft server insisted on hosting 24/7) they could just take a planet and carve out all the perfectly balanced continents they wanted.

Does this imply that we can't create great maps, only find them?

I don't know where you all get the Idea from that there will me a leaderbord.

I think there is no such thing, thus no need for ranked maps.

I think "jurgenvonjurgensen" came up with a good idea in the "Possible ways to start a 1v1" topic.

The reason I think that this idea is so great is that you could potentially have two players start on two separate, identical moons orbiting a large planet - over which they will fight for control.

The beauty of this simple idea is that it really doesn't matter if the planet below isn't symmetrical and therefore procedurally generated. In fact if it is large enough then the players can choose for themselves where they touch down and the reward will be that the fastest player will have first choice.

I suppose that additionally the first choice may not be to establish a base on the planet but simply to stop the other player from doing so. I believe tactically in this situation there are a lot of options that will make gameplay varied and interesting.

Matchmaking was confirmed and matchmaking implies a ladder. Which is a VERY important thing to have anyway.
Having a certain set of widely accepted ranked settings is also very important for any kind of competitive play.

It's definitely very important that there is a rating system as it acts as a great incentive. Since FA Forever recently introduced their new ladder system, the quantity and quality of ranked games has gone up dramatically.

He's saying if you play on a saved map it will be static, the saved map will not change each time you play it, so if you find a really great competitive map then you can save it. I'm also pretty sure you will be able to create your own maps so if you really want a perfect competitive map you could always make your own.

And what does that have to do with the question of how Random Generation of maps will affect ranked play?

Mike

For those who might be missing the point, let me just highlight the key phrase there.

As long as any imbalance isn't glaring, then there always should be a little differentiation in the terrain. Never been a fan of static maps, and I feel that a bit of randomness would really bring out the oddball strategies.

Sometimes your on the bad end of the map and need to skill your way out of it.

Moon Spawn idea sounds good.

What's the point of ranked play if you don't start out on equal footing with your opponent?

Randomizer can finetune too.