Mines

I want to see the return of mines. But not just land mines, air and naval mines too. Of course, all mines need cloaking, otherwise they're pretty useless. They should be powerful enough to destroy just about anything that triggers them.

Imagine something like the gas bag plants from TA. The mine floats but is tethered to the ground. Incoming air attack collides with it and BAM.

I think it goes without saying that the mines should not be triggered by your own units, but your units would get damaged if the mine explodes. It's only fair.

Ah, mines. Something many players think they want, and then never use because at the end of the day they are usually not that interesting after all.

It does depend on the nature of the game, and on implementation of course. Mines in Brood War worked brilliantly (in a tactical manner). But that's quite a different game from TA, and by extension PA, which will be an even larger scale game.

Mines accomplish two things. Firstly, they deny area. Because maps in Brood War often have choke points that are quite close together, this means you can actually make relatively few mines do quite a lot of work. Secondly, they kill stuff. Especially large armies walking into a large minefield, resulting in a lot of casualties in a hurry. As a result, mines also create an intelligence battle, where players are hiding mines, and trying to find and work around enemy mines (assuming they are viable and convenient to use, that is).

However in a game like PA, where entire planets are being contested, and there is a lot of freedom of mobility, in order to get anything remotely similar in effect you are going to need a LOT of mines. An incredible number of mines, at a reasonable enough density that units walking across a minefield don't want to keep going regardless. Add to this the fact that in order to sustain this type of area control, you need to keep building mines. At a certain point, it is simply more convenient to use other forms of positional play and area control, because mines just become too much of a pain to all concerned.

tl;dr- Could work, most likely would be a massive nuisance which can be avoided by using other forms of positional play, area denial, and board control.

Yeah sure,

I never really found them effective in other games. Usually the'd all blow up in the first attack and my turrets would do all the work after that. But yeah why not, throw em in. Just remember to add in a minesweeper unit.

The one time I did have fun with mines was laying a minefield in a space where I knew someone was going to build a base expansion and watching a few of their workers blow up.

I envision that mines could be exceptionally useful in preventing engies from getting mexes. As in, placing mines around far out mexes that the other player will eventually go for, so that the engie will not only not be able to build the mex, but will die, requiring another engie to be sent, hence wasting the opponent's time.

I guess it depends on terrain whether or not mines will be useful otherwise. If there are chokepoints in any regard, they have potential.

But you could just use a mobile unit to deny mexes. I suppose it depends on prices, but why put a permanent mine there when you can put the cheapest available unit with a gun on station there? And it can even be moved, or chase down engineers if desired.

Mines were poorly implemented in TA, since they consumed 1 point of popcap each, and had to be manually spaced at the optimal distance to avoid sympathetic detonation, and mine layers were too slow to be useful. Also it had six types of mines, of which only two were useful.

As much as it was clearly an unrelated game with a name attached to it for free marketing, and full of disturbing American propaganda, C&C Generals actually did mines fairly sensibly, by having them regenerative. The other thing it did right was air-deployable mines. They're not seen in IRL combat very much because they're mainly good at causing civilian casualties years after a war is over, which isn't very good PR, but dropping mines from planes serves two purposes: It gives planes the ability to deny an area without loitering, which helps make ground attack planes not just flying tanks. And, it adds a value to controlling airspace even when your units aren't there. If you don't have the ability to send out interceptors and your opponent goes air, expect there to be mines in all of your expansions by the time you get to them. This second reason is mainly to give an early bomber something to do other than make a bee line for the opponent's base and try and bomb as many engineers as it can before it is inevitably doomed by T1 mobile flak (Or in other words, allow the words "early bomber" to be used in situations other than "early bomber rush").

Rather than building a minefield one mine at a time from a specialised unit, the correct implementation for ground-deployed mines is to build a single Mine Layer building (which is coincidentally about the size and shape of a mine) which generates a stealth field (which only applies to tiny units, like mines) and automatically builds optimally-spaced mines within its (artificially large) build radius. Since these mines would obviously be working in support of fixed defences, mines that stun units would be the sensible choice here (especially if stunning isn't widely available), so as to discourage attempts to recklessly charge PDs in an attempt to D-Gun them (chances are, if you do that, there will be mines in front of it, and you'll be stunned in range of a PD).

EDIT: On air mines: They're dumb and shouldn't exist. Naval mines are pretty much the same as land ones, but should be cheaper, due to not needing cloak capacity. Possibly deployed by torpedo bombers or submarines. Orbital mines are actually surprisingly plausible, if objects move on predictable orbits. Due to satellites likely being the most fragile of units, and orbital velocities being high, a 'mine' is just a terminal guidance package on the orbit you want to deny.

I agree, lol they consumed popcap? I didnt recognize, well would be interested into them

Definitely interesting ideas on implementation, and it sounds like it would work well. Orbital mines, especially, make sense, and have been used in quite a bit of sci-fi for orbit denial. As you say, really all that's needed is to toss a bunch of junk there and it does its work itself. That said, you can also do what they did in The Unincorporated Woman and strap engines to a big hunk of ice and use it to "plow" the orbital path clear. Definitely a lot of room to get creative with this stuff, but I think it makes the most sense for space, rather than on the ground (given the scales we'll be talking about).

At the end of the day, though, the return on investment from implementing it is probably low. Sure, it's cool, but its use-cases are few and niche. As was already mentioned, it's more tactically useful (and likely) to simply set up a perimeter of dragons teeth and turrets (and orbital batteries).

While true, the cost of implementation is also low. There's not much to implementing a mine, since it doesn't have animations (all it does is blow up, and you can reuse the explosion animation from something else), physics, or need an intricate 3D model (In Generals they didn't even have 3D models at all.), and can be deployed by existing units.

I think, the basic problems with mines in the context of rts games is the scale.

normally I would say, a mine field is used for a larger area (higher number) and it takes time to deploy and even more time to remove.
In rts games it is usually more effective to use defensive structures or mobile units, because the relative cost in time and resources is skewed towards them.

I would guess, one would have to make them stronger and cheaper, so it wouldn't be sensible to just run through them. On the other hand, that would give them probably a too great relative strength.
One point to limit their use would be, to activate friendly fire for them.
Essentially creating unusable areas until cleaned explicitly.
It isn't an easy balance issue, in the end most games which had mines seem to use them on a underpowered level to be on the safe side.

What if mines worked as a "barrier" or "area" thing? Where once you have the tech to make mines, you select an area somehow and the game lays all the mines in the area with the precise spacing to avoid domino effect chain explosions and be far enough away from existing units but be as close as possible. If done this way, it would need a short deploy time that is cancelled and refunded if enemies get there first.

Or, you could have a unit that deploys mines. They can deploy so many mines, and once their limit is reached they automatically refund a small bit of their value.

Or, you could add mines as something you deploy onto a planet/building. Where they float around the planet or building as an animation, and they have an effect when the area around is breached, that can occur for so many enemy troops that breach the field.

THEN THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF MINES...

They can make mines that can detect enemies in a certain area and move torwards the target once its in its range, and crash into the target with its effect damaging the target it hit.

They can make different mines that work differently, like anti-personell mines that do lethal wide damage to ground units, and anti-armor mines that do less-than-lethal damage to ground units and a more isolated explosion but do lethal damage to vehicles instead.

They can make mines with effects, like some that blow up for damage, some that causes EMPS to disable enemys for a short time, some that are steath but detects enemy presence and warns the player, some that release acid that stays in the area around where the mine was for a short time and causes a lingering damage to enemies that entered the area.

Mines should definitely be in the game. They should just play with the ideas and see which idea/ideas work.

You seem to be under the impression that the game is very different to the one Uber intend to make. The terms "refund" and "anti-personnel" make no sense in a game with a flow-based economy and entirely robot armies.

Yo dawg, I heard you liked area denial, so I put area denial effects on your area denial weapons so you can deny areas while you deny areas.

I meant the unit dissapears after it is out of mines. If you want it to dissapear leave nothing when its out, I guess thats fine. It can't just run out and be left as an empty unit with no purpose though. I thought making the unit recyclable once empty for a little refund is a good idea, to reward you for keeping it alive through it's job. COOL IDEA THOUGH, maybe the mine-layer can lay it's mines, and then for its last mine left it TURNS ITSELF INTO A MINE. Left with no useless unit, yet you feel like every piece was used, and its innovative and unique signature to give this game.

And there are different kind of units even if all are robotic. the different "sizes" and "types" of units could take damage differently from different "kinds" of mines that are designed to damage more torwards one type and less to another type. You get the idea.

And, I meant a sustained area of denial. A single mine that denies an area for a longer time but with weaker lingering damage. The concept works, the enemy would have a visually unappealing area which they would avoid travelling through for that short time, and the enemy's victim units who triggered it would be injured. You also wouldn't be able to minesweep it immediately if you found it by suprise and withdrew to minesweep it, since the area will damage you no matter what until its time is up. What if it does feel like adding area of denial on top of area of denial though, who has a problem with more moar?

While you're right about the portions you mention, it's still a significant cost to implement in terms of mechanics and writing the code to make them work. Primarily in terms of how to deploy them, how to replenish them. As already addressed, placing mines manually would discourage their use since it's so tedious and time-consuming. That means setting up an area mechanic and replenishment. How do you destroy the field entirely and keep it from regenerating? We need to implement minesweeper units now.

Even if we reuse existing units, we're still stuck coding and balancing an entirely new unit. We have to code a way to dislay to the owner where they are (so you DO need graphics of some sort created), how to let others detect them and/or remove them.

It SOUNDS simple, but nothing ever really is, especially when it comes to programming.

I'm less enamoured of my regenerating minefield idea now, and think that the other implementation, where mines are a special ability of certain units (Bombers and subs being the obvious choices, possibly some artillery) and bought and used like Tactical Missiles is simpler and provides more tactical utility (as it makes mines semi-offensive, like artillery, rather than mostly defensive, like PD).

Why would it run out of mines? This isn't Starcraft where you get three mines per Vulture and if you want more mines you have to buy more space motorcycles because apparently landmines are a biproduct of space motorcycle production and cannot be made any other way. Any mine laying unit would make its own mines with its internal nanolathe. Not that dedicated minelayers are an efficient use of development resources, and only make a situational unit more situational. Dropped out of bombers or built by normal engineers is the only way they're getting in the game.

Oh ho ho. You'd best not mention damage and armour types around here. It won't make you popular.

At that point, then stick to another traditional area denial weapon: the mortar and saturation bombing. I would be all for mobile artillery that actually behaved like artillery, and it would take a grand total of ZERO work: simply issue an "attack here" command to an artillery type unit, it will move close enough to get an angle and range to hit it, and then it shoots until you tell it to stop. Make artillery have a decent amount of splash and you've got an excellent solution.

Saturation bombing doesn't even need to be expalined. There's even more potential with orbital batteries entered into it: those unit-launchers we see in the concept video could just as easily launch small chunks of rock, and you can aim an orbital defense cannon at the ground just as easily as a ship in space (and I do hope we see some actual spacecraft).

These are all potential options that require far less work than mines, are already planned in some form or another, and make perfect sense in the context of the universe. Furthermore, they'd be far more adaptable and dynamic than a static defense such as a minefield.

The problem I typically had with mines was that for some reason, it was always that you had to build or deploy each mine individually.

As the previously mentioned C&C Generals example, the mines were always deployed in large fields quickly and effectively, which is what resulted in their common use.

Having it as an ability on a unit that allows you to select an area and it quickly fills the area with mines in the intended fashion makes mine laying less annoying to do, as you can just use multiples of these units to lay down large amounts of mines quickly, effectively, and painlessly.

Clearing mines could also be somewhat easy, as if there is stealth, there will be stealth detection. Just bring that radar unit with your force and when the mines are detected used some area effect weapons to damage and trigger multiple mines. Still slows down the opposition as intended. Especially if that path happens to be a valley completely filled with mines. It would take a long time to clear them all with mobile artillery.

As I mentioned, I am just throwing out ideas, and I specifically liked so far the simple ideas to make them deployable from existing units or effects to be given to things. It is easier to design into the game, if it is an item from an existing unit, or a defence effect purchased and given to a building or base or planet (where it has an animation where the mines go out, and an animation when tripped by enemies entering the area, and giving the single effect). The second idea is also very quick and easy to use by players, just get mines and they do most their own work by automatically deploying around a base or planet, like the Generals example.

I did like some of the other ideas though. Mines with different effects. Mines that do more damage to an intended target (its not even necesarily armor, but even if it is an armor multiplier and only implemented to mines, im sure it wouldn't be highly unpopular). Even if it is just a "silent alarm", where you plant it in space between your planet and your enemy's planet, and it warns you when the enemy passes it but stays put and does nothing.

Just brainstorming ideas. Doesn't hurt to look at them and see if they fit or not. Whether it is an ability, equipped to an existing unit, or added as a unit itself. Whether any diverse kinds of mines make sense or not. At least it can be thought of. Possibly even combine the good ideas together and make a functioning system from them. If someone had a good idea to make the game better, i'd hope they wouldn't discard it as instantly unpopular or unuseable.

KNOW WHAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE FOR THIS GAME? A Mine Rocket. You lauch it like a planetary pod or missile, it flies and scatters mines. Target the area around your base, the area around a planet, a patch of space between planets, a patch of ground between bases on same planet. Could make a Mine Rocket and Interplanet Mine Rocket, the difference is the prior being a closer range inner-planet minefield-creator, and the latter being an in-space mine-field creator. Different costs or tech levels.

If they were to work it'd have to be minefields rather than mines. So when I send out a layer it would automatically plant 50 mines in the location I specify or something. You need strategic mine laying to make it work.

Area denial by artillery doesn't actually work. If your artillery can fire continuously with enough DPS to actually deny the area to units moving through it, it would be better spent actually shooting at the enemy. It's not stealthy, and it requires you to dedicate a unit continuously to denying one area, which is also an obvious point of failure. It would be a tactic, but it would almost certainly never be a good tactic, if only because the same unit has to be competitively costed for use in direct assaults, and no cost could adequately balance both uses.

The point of mines is that once they've been used once, there's the uncertainty stemming from the fact that your opponent could have deployed mines anywhere he's had the opportunity to control for even a short time, while it's obvious where someone using continuous bombardment isn't bombarding, because it's the place not full of explosions.

There's an element of reading into your opponent's strategy with mines. He could have just dropped one minefield at your expansion and then concentrated on something else, hoping you'll waste resources sweeping every mass point for mines, or he could have mined everything in the hope that you'll damn the torpedoes and charge in. And artillery is also obviously useless for denying your own expansions to the enemy. If you're being forced to retreat, you clearly don't have enough control to keep up mobile artillery, but mining your own expansions and then falling back with some token resistance becomes a sneaky play you can throw out once in a while because your opponent will be distracted with the actual battle and may attempt to chase your fleeing troops down, only to run into a minefield (or the mere threat of mines may deter pursuit, as in the Battle of Jutland).