Submarines and Anti-Submarine Warfare

One of the thing's I've noticed on a number of RTS mod and game development forums is that any time someone posits a hypothetical scenario, there is a high probability of folks joining in with a "I could counter your scenario with X!" followed by "I counter your X with Y!". Such arguments will continue on for a long time, derailing most topics.

Might I suggest a return to the discussion at hand as to how submarines can be implemented in a way that gives plenty of opportunity for their use, and provides plenty of choices as to how they can be countered?

One thing this discussion has highlighted is the importance of air power in countering subs. I would quite like to see some kind of loitering aircraft such as a helicopter or gunship armed with torpedoes. One of the issues with bomber based ASW aircraft is that by the time they have lined up for their run, they've probably flown through half the AA on the map. Loitering ASW aircraft would encourage subs to be used as part of a diverse fleet, or take a risk if you want them to be used as isolated wolf-packs.

I think that is a good idea. The slow, loitering helicopter like ASW unit could be the T1 option, while the faster (hopefully powerful) bomber could be the T2 option.

What I hated most about subs and sub warfare was the very rock-paper-scissors way of damage handling.

A submarine torpedo did X damage. An anti-sub torpedo did Y damage. So you could always know exactly how your units would survive. There was no random nature to the combat.

After a land battle, my units will be running around with all kinds of different health. A nearby explosion could damage a few, a unit that explodes with some volatility could hurt other things... it was organized chaos.

Submarines always felt like they existed in this special world void of the chaos that affects every other unit, and I hated that. It's hard for me to describe what I'm talking about but I'm fairly certain we all know what I'm referring to.

I think ASW is a very rock-paper-scissors thing, except for when it devolves into rocket tag. Other than add a greater verity of submarines and anti-submarine warfare units I can not think of much that would spice up submarine and ASW unit fights (maybe give the subs surface to air missiles and/or flack guns).

It wasn't RPS because of sub warfare, it was RPS because their were so few units. Tanks are essentially the same thing, but you have a variety working together to create more interactions.

For what its worth, 5 years ago when we were working on After the War, our Supcom mod, I put a great deal of effort into rethinking submarine warfare.

Here's my notes that describe how we changed the subs in the mod. There's some pretty cool ideas here that might be useful in PA.


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## SUBS AND SONAR CHANGES
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The pinged sonar was cool and all but I think I have an improved idea that works better with the game physics
and code limitations. The real reason behind the pinged sonar was to make it a little more dificult to detect
and attack submarines, which enhances their tactical capabilities. There's a better way to accomplish this while
creating very interesting new options and dynamics of the underwater portion of this game.
Essentially, sonar is being redefined.
Instead of being more like underwater radar, its going to be much more audio based, like sonar is in real life.
Things that make noise will trip sonar. Things that don't make noise won't.
A lot of simultaneous changes had to take place to make this happen. These are illustrated here.

First, sonar was restored to "full time" rather than pinged as it operated before in this mod.
Pinged sonar is a neat idea but it just isn't compatible with a full-time audio based sonar model.

Next, sonar range was increased by 50% across the board. Before, functioning like underwater radar, the range
of sonar needed to be pretty short in order for there to be *any* significant stealthy benefit for being underwater.
In this model, we can allow for a longer ranged sonar, while still maintaining the covert aspect of underwater ops.
We also get the benefit of detecting things much farther off than before in the case of advanced sonar, which will
help a whole lot on really big ocean maps where it can be extremely difficult to find things hidden underwater miles away.

The base speed for all submarines is currently 50% of blueprint value. As we continue to verify the correctness of the
base speed through playtesting, we will hard code new values into the actual blueprints and remove this modifier.
The base brake speed for all submarines will be 20% of the blueprint value.

Attack sub torpedo range has been increased from 32 to 50.
Naval ranges are longer in general, and 32 is a bit too melee like for submarine torpedoes. Subs are stealthy
assassin units, not skirmishers.
On the practical side, the new torpedo range allows for an interesting new factor when it comes to sub vs sub warfare.
When moving, subs have a reduced sonar range than when they are stationary. If a submarine approaches another submarine
which is stationary, the sub which is just sitting there will catch the moving sub on its sonar *before* the moving sub
catches the stationary sub. This causes 1st-strike to go to the stationary sub, giving it a good chance of winning
the duel because it only takes a couple torpedoes to kill another sub. In order to take advantage of this, the torpedo
range must be longer than the reduced sonar range when moving. Destroyers' torpedoes have also been increased in range
to 50 to match subs because destroyers are subs' number-one natural predator.
More on dynamic sonar changes later.

Since sonar is now audio based, most objects which aren't moving will simply not show up on sonar.
This includes all structures built to float on the water. Underwater structures still show up because if they didn't
you would never find them. I figure the Tech 3 resource generators always make a lot of noise
Tech 1 and Tech 2 ships and attack submarines will drop off sonar if they stop moving. Ships drop off immediately, while
subs drop off after 30 seconds. Firing torpedoes will cause subs to show up on sonar for 30 seconds again.
Tech 3 ships, subs and experimentals make a lot of noise, and so they appear on sonar all the time.
All of this vanishing from sonar isn't to say these units are undetectable. Line of sight still reveals underwater units
that are stealth to sonar, and most ships have a pretty decent vision range.
Also, radar will pick up anything sticking out of the water of course.

With attack subs' primary intel coming from sonar, they will not typically be able to detect most ships or structures
floating on the surface to attack them. I've given the attack subs a decent ranged radar when they are surfaced, that
they can use to spot targets or threats. This opens up a legitimate motivation to actually surface your subs.

Now for the good stuff.
A new mode has been added to the attack subs based on the military tactic "run silent, run deep"
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/deep.htm
This simulates the attack subs moving into ultra quiet mode and too deep for visual sensors.
When in this mode, subs have a greatly reduced vision range, reduced speed to keep silent, no weapons, and they are
*undetectable* by enemy units.
The Stealth button is used to engage or disengage silent running mode.
Silent running mode can be activated only 15 seconds after a weapons fire, and only when submerged.

Here are the modal characteristics of the attack subs:

When subs are in "silent running mode" they will behave like this:
Max speed will be 25% of blueprint value
Torpedoes will be disabled
Vision will be reduced to 10 ** this is a good indicator that the sub is in this mode **
Sonar will be switched off
Surfacing will be disabled
Sub will be completely undetectable in this mode

When subs are not in "silent running mode" but submerged:
Sub will show up on enemy sonar
Max speed will be blueprint value
Gun (if present) will be disabled
Vision and sonar will be blueprint value
Radar will be disabled
Torpedoes will be enabled
Surfacing will be enabled
When moving, sonar will be decreased by 55%
When stopped and not firing a torpedo for 30 seconds or longer, sub will drop off sonar but still be visible.

When subs are surfaced:
Sub will show up on both enemy sonar and radar
Max speed will be 30% faster than blueprint value
Gun (if present) will be enabled
Vision will be increased by 50%
Sonar will be decreased by 50%
Radar will be enabled
When moving, sonar will be disabled
When stopped and not firing a torpedo for 30 seconds or longer, sub will drop off sonar but still be visible.


This allows better tactical control over the functions of your subs.
One-click switching to silent mode without having to worry about putting them on hold fire.
It also ensures your subs don't go out of silent mode without your consent.
Silent mode now allows movement, but only very slowly.
Stopping subs is always advantageous for intel, and thus for getting first shot (important) in sub vs sub combat.
There's a real use for surfacing.

That is really interesting. Implementing a fast or stealth option for subs sounds like a good idea. Also rather than using as complex a system as you do (which sounds like a decent model of real life sonar), what if the fast mode subs had poor sonar, and the stealth mode subs had good sonar?

You do realize what "Not necessarily" means right? To explain just because you lost the air or sea war shouldn't force you to lose, what it should do is limit your options. To mis-quote Day[9], you could transition into losing your whole ****ing base and still pull off a win, if anything such things are EASIER in TA/SupComFA/PA because of the commander and the assassination game mode.

Mike

My suggestion in another thread discussing naval would provide a pretty good answer to the submarine issue - have the units be able to traverse the sea-bed, and be able to attack underwater with a limited range.

I do think that sub dominance is the only reason people are against them being included, but what futuristic war wouldn't take advantage of underwater combat, I mean come on!? The earth is ~70% water, the resources underwater would be worth figuring out how to operate underwater alone don't you think?

The issue with this is it would not look very good.

Given the ease with which units are created in TA/SupCom like games why not have specialzed units that perform better in different environment?

yeah - apparently not everyone thinks an army of robots traversing the sea-bed and battling it out underwater is very cool looking. There was mixed reviews on the other thread too.

I happen to think it would look awesome and provide a whole new facet of game play that has been lacking in games...(seriously, its the future..that would just seem to work to me, and considering that on planets like earth a majority of resources wouldn't be accessible unless you went underwater......)

But, while disappointed if they did not have universally hybrid-units that can walk underwater like that, if they had other units that could operate like that, maybe one or two bots, or maybe some defensive underwater structures...I'd be cool with that too.

I'm sure the devs know what they're doing here. Both TA and FA had ample means to deal with subs, while there was still a good rock paper scissors mechanic (important ships were vulnerable to subs while support ships could kill them).

I don't understand the concept of submarine spam, as I've never encountered a group of subs I couldn't dispatch with torpedo bombers.

If an aircraft has sonar it has to drop a buoy and stay close to it IMHO, perfect heli role. I would not like magic radarlike sonar for planes.

Plenty of scope for sonar on fast destroyers with powerful depth charges. Also small fast E-boat type torpedo boats can escort destroyers and do dual duty attacking subs and surface vessels with small torps and they would be too manoevurable to be hit by sub torps if you move them about while a surface destroyer has historically been faster than a sub so able to get out of the way or catch it.

Agreed levastov, there simply wouldnt be a sub problem if people used the anti sub strategies that exist in games with subs.

The anti sub attitude makes no sense. If people are reacting to FA there were anti sub options available, T2 torpedo planes to use, if people chose not to use them then they could be overrun with subs, but why wouldn't you? If they bring cruiser along then that is not sub spam is it, it is a dominating strategy which has to be nipped in the bud or beaten back with arty or T3 bombers or hoardes of T2 fighter bombers or gunships plus torpedo planes and then only if you neglect your own naval build with sub killers. Why do people get like frozen with fear like a rabbit in the headlights when facing subs?

The problem with cybran navy is ridiculous stealth not subs.

As much as I love the way the modern navies deal with subs, BoolyBooly, there's no reason to think that future warfare will not employ sensors capable of easily piercing all fluid, and even solid mediums. That is to say, planes and satellites should conceivably be capable of spotting subs easily. How that works should all come down to playtesting and finding what's "fun."

I'm highly amused by the US Navy's ACTUV future concept for submarine warfare, though: http://archive.darpa.mil/actuv/

It's a super cheap drone that uses powerful active sonar to lock on to and follow an enemy sub, all the while broadcasting its position for all to see. It would even speed off if the sub tried to surface and fire at it, otherwise staying directly above it.

As a Cybran naval aficionado, I rather liked the way they worked I'm most concerned with there still being an option for a walking ship. That was my favorite strategy in FA.

The reason for it being tricky to get them right is because they are extremely overpowered in real life (trust me). Honestly, they are currently rather unrealistically underpowered in every single game I have seen them in. Subs can sink any boat (aside from a supercarrier) with just one torpedo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDaUVI3BMI8). Also, if the sub doesnt want to be found... it wont.

Perhaps give them powerful torpedoes and the usual stealthy stuff but have an ammo cap on the torpedoes that they need to go back to the naval yard to resupply. Also just make them more expensive so you cant spam as many of them.

I would say add proper anti-sub warfare but there is only one counter to subs... and it is other subs.

Well IMHO Stingray is fun.

And I wouldnt be too sure about superscience seeing through the oceans so easily, water is very resistant to radar and light though it does have subtle dielectric properties which allow sharks for example to detect the nervous impulses of hidden prey at close range and certain electric fish to navigate and communicate using passive and active electrical senses in turbid river waters also at close range. Biology finds a way and after 4 billion years of evolution dolphins use sonar to hunt at depth, not light related vision (which is like radar at a different wavelength). So would future bots, I bet.

For balance and gameplay I would be hesitant to have submarines be as stealthy and deadly as they are in real life (just like that I doubt most tanks will one hit kill each other). It would be like blind rocket tag (though could be fun for its own game/mod).

I have no problem if the submarines are a glass cannon type unit, though I think updating their armament to include anti-ship missiles would be a good idea. I am hesitant to have limited ammo for something that would be their equivalent to a multi-billion dollar plus nuclear submarine but for a small T1 submarine I could see that working.

I think that good long range maritime patrol aircraft and a huge sonar network would be better able to protect a large area than an equal investment in submarines.

So wait you don't want ammunition for subs, but you do for aircraft? you're consistent.

If you read everything I post, you will even see that I only want ammo for some planes. Also I would like it for small, fast missile/torpedo boats.

What about for some land units as well?

Really hating on the idea of ammunition. The added complexity isn't justified.