Do we need naval?

So naval might be a stretch goal. I have to ask, is it really necessary? I imagine most of what you can do with sea units you can do with air/space units. With the new interplanetary dimension, would naval add too much clutter to the game? Too much dev effort for little gain?

Hover units or similar stuff would be enough. No need for a special naval-tech.

I rather want spaceships.

We don't need naval, but it would be nice to introduce if it worked out.

The whole problem with naval is that the ships are too slow. If you make them the same speed as land units, then water is just like a different kind of land, and people won't believe that they are really boats (realism perception), so they would be pointless.

Trying to make ships that can defend themselves against air, while still being able to make it to their target in a reasonable amount of time, and ensuring they can't dominate the land too much for their price is a difficult task.

It's like introducing an entirely new faction to the game, in that it introduces many balance issues.

With the extra dimension naval units seem more like an alternative to tanks, and at a glance seem uneccessary. However this may be because of the map that was shown in the video. Naval units have only ever been effective in a percentage of maps due to the requirement of generaly large bodies of water, which will become less relivant in a game where interplanitary transport is a viable option. Its a nicety that would be good to support in case some creative modder wants to do something, but that is a poor reason to put it in a game. (actual poorness subject to alteration of coding difficulty)

It all comes down to just how the game will eventualy be balanced and i think a large aspect will be how amphibious bases can be.

That's pretty much what I think too, Once you kinda head into space Naval Units lose a lot of their use. Between Air units, possibly Transports, amphibious units and Unit Cannons you wouldn't need naval units to deal with islands and such.

Only time I could see Naval units being more than just a fun niche is if you don't leave teh planet and have to deal with large bodies of water.

Mike

I'm admittedly a naval buff, but I'd love to see that included. Yes, hover units can replace some of what naval does, but no naval takes away some cool strategic possibilities that TA used to have, especially if a given procedurally generated world has large lakes or oceans.

I'm thinking in particular of Core Contingency, and some of the scale issues with naval units. They add:
- Underwater resource/factories (water is a great way to hide facilities, and could provide additional protection against KEWs)
- Mobile units large enough to carry anti-orbital weaponry, floating factories.
- Submarine units with ballistic missiles/nukes.
- Coastal bombardment; the one thing ships always did best in TA and SupCom was denying territory in a way no aircraft or hovercraft could.
- Battleships are just awesome.

I understand why other features must take priority for the initial fundraising - but as a stretch goal, naval would certainly be welcome in a game on this scale, especially if we're staying away space navies.

Desert/Arctic/Lava planet... so NO to naval, and NO to amphibious. Amphibious means that the planets types are just design stuff, have no really strategic meanings.

I suppose its also worth mentioning that I dont think any of us are against naval units, just they are a low priority and of debatable use in a game of this scale. (desert planets and low gravity moons could have land ships, just hovering versions of conventional navy, but that raises balance issues no matter how slow you make them)

Also i would just like to say that yes... battleships are cool.

Yeah, maybe anti-gravity option switch(on/off) in factories. Switch the bottom of the tank. Of course not for every land unit, and it cranks up the cost. It's easier than adding extra units.

upd.: reduced maneuverability (velocity, turning/braking speed)

The cool thing about TA is that you have hundreds of units that you can try out. Many are useless or share a role, but it's cool that they are there. So even though ships might not be effective, it will still be fun to play with them.

I'd say no ships at launch, but 1 unit per week after launch -> ships!

I'd argue it isn't, Making 1 or 2 new units is easier than modifying 4-6 preexisting ones. Also you need to consider balance as well, having separate Amphibious units allow Uber to have much better control of inter-unit balance.

Mike

I am going to vote yes for once, as a stretch goal.

having a navy would allow for way more varied planets. with an 80%-90% water surfaced planet it would be kind a lame to do all transportation via air/unit cannons.

this would mean, though that this map type would probably include off-shore mass and energy collectors.

tbh, I was kind of disapointed when C&C generals ZH did not have a navy, but has a ship cover the entire game box, bit off-topic but yeah.

I'm sorry to say I was never all that impressed with navy in TA. Core contingency was perhaps the best, but even here, it was usually just easier and flat out better to just go straight for air and ignore navy entirely.

Given past experience? I personally would have to vote no for navy.

"We are not shooting for realism... WE'RE SHOOTING FOR AWESOME"

- Scathis

And you're wrong. No ones going to stop believing those things in the water are boats, just because they're going fast.

You'd be surprised at the kinds of things that can break a person's suspension of dis-belief. It's a bit different for everyone, but if a boat in a game does something they know a boat shouldn't be able too if can break it.

Mike

Due to the larger scale people tend not to notice how fast ships move so even though they feel slow and ponderous, they can still cover large distances. The larger the planet the more necessary navy becomes in a way, although once again it depends on the relivance of alternatives. unit cannons dont work very well when being used as an ark.

making ships believable is all about weight, a truck can move as fast as a car, just with a lower acceleration, go Newton!

It depends on what purpose you give to the amph. units.

You can add 1-2 light, fast hitting units, maybe a transport (but it can be done with air).

Or you can make 4 bottom, use the same, existing units, a bit different purpose. They can be nerfed above water/lava, each unit differently (slow and exposed). Maybe they can be faster above sand.

This keeps the unit count low.

upd.: The hp/armor/damage will remain the same, so you can calculate with that. Not to have another unit.

Frankly if you ask me stuff like this is just shoddy game design, the extra work required to create, not only the models but the code to make it all work along with the balance headaches would be at least equal to making new units, of which you'd need fewer of.

Mike