Juice Chaining

This is the truth.

If we are getting pushed really hard, I replace the spawn rocket turrets. Otherwise, I leave turrets to supports/snipers.

If i have the cash and someone built and left a lazer turret at 1 or 2, i upgrade to 3.

Turrets (IMO) are better left to supports, since a 1.1 turret is infinitely better than a 1.0 turret, and they last 3x as long with a babysitter.

Ask SXD about building turrets. He knows what to do with em.

Yesterday we played a game on ammo mule, the first half of the match we played normal but didn't push hard, just saved up money.

The second half 5 of us swapped to support, built, fully upgraded, and hacked four longshot turrets and defended them for the rest of the match.

I scored about 4 kills with just longshots, probably at least 15 longshot kills between us that match.
Id say they managed to kill maybe 2 of the longshots which we simply rebuilt

And yes, I do buy turrets even in a regular match. It just depends what class I'm playing, how the match is flowing, do we have a decent support and other such variables

I kind of agree, but then if a team is being pushed hard, the support has to use all of his money on turrets instead of skills (trust me, I've been there many times). And they're forced to stay in the base healing the turrets, praying that a juiced pro won't come kill their just bought laser turret.

That's obviously a completely different situation, seeing as you had 5 pros in the base.

When you do buy turrets, do you spend it on expensive ones? I'm talking at least level 3 long shots. Be honest.

When I do (rarely) buy turrets:
-Level 3 Laserblazer
-Level 1 or 2 (rarely) Rock-it
-Level 3 Long Shots (when I play support, but only if another support is already spamming gap-shots).

This is not to say I don't find turrets useful, but that the classes with less useful and more plentiful juice are better suited for spending their money on turrets. Not to mention the sniper and supports have the best synergy with the turrets in the game. (Ice Traps + Over heal + Hack = lol @ your juice assassin.) My Tank is better suited for buying juice and sometimes the Anhi if our assassin is out of commission.

you can kill juicers (it will be easier when their health stops being infinite next update).

anyhow... wait, no, seriously, you can kill juicers.

like i was saying... no seriously, listen, you CAN kill juicers if your whole team fires at him and one or two of you grapple him and ice bomb him and ring him out and plant an airstrike or bomb on him...

back to the topic... hold on one moment, im serious, even if you dont have a team you can kill a juicer if you grapple him a lot and waste his time in juice mode.

(seriously now)ok, moving on. i believe juice should be harder to get (look at another juice thread to hear my ideas to make it harder to get), but its good to have it and all. it just needs to be a difficult feat to achieve.

BUT MAINLY IM TIRED OF 99% OF PLAYERS, MAINLY ON MY TEAM, RUNNING AWAY FROM JUICED ENEMIES. IF THERE ARE 4 OF YOU, FFS DONT ALL OF YOU RUN AWAY. id love to see, more than once a week, for a team to focus-fire on juicers, grapple them while others fire into them, freeze them, ring them out, airstrike and bomb-attach them. something.

I like to run towards the Juiced enemy and act like they are not there, thus making them react to me and not my team/base. It works more often then not.

Thanks for being honest. I used to believe that turrets were useful too. I would always spend a skillsworth of money on a long shot and some laser turrets right in the beginning. But when I would get back to my base after pushing for a bit or placing a firebase down, half of the turrets would be gone. Then I'd have to spend more money to replace them. It would get to the point that 5 minutes into the game, I had no money for skills and all of the turret nubs were in the destroyed mode, even as I was playing a very defensive support.

Perhaps it was foolish of me to buy all of those turrets, but I guess I just assumed that such a detailed part of the game would be more successful at stopping opponents. It's not like I think that turrets aren't useful. They're really good for stopping a group of bots from getting into your base. They just don't last long enough with juice chaining.

I actually think that almost every class in the game has a juice that is more useful than spending that on turrets. Snipers are an exception because they can get it so fast and really shouldn't be wasting the money on it. Tanks, gunners, assassins, and assaults all have weapons that decimate turrets when juiced. Supports can use juice as a means to hack an opposing turret. It's yet another reason why buying juice should be looked at. Juice is generally a better use of your money than buying turrets. I mean, juice can even be used defensively as a substitute for turrets.

So I propose a solution, either we decrease the amount of money need to buy most turrets, or increase the amount of money needed for juice. This way, juice chaining will either be less devestating, or will be slower and harder to pull off. It can allow for teams to rebuild their base up afterwards.

A juiced pro can't destroy turrets if you stop him.

Herp derp.

An opposing pro cannot kill you if you kill him first, hence there is no reason not to go 58-0
Also if you take down their moneyball before they take down yours, you win.

More usefull advice coming soon!

I already addressed this. It's not as easy as your making it out to be, and while it is not impossible it is particularly difficult to defend from, especially if the juicer is only focusing on turrets and ignoring you or if they do it from a distance.

It is difficult for YOU to defend against.
The only thing that's ever hard to stop is a juice tank as deathblossom is batshit crazy while juiced.

I'm not saying its easy to stop a good juicer, but it's just not nearly as difficult as you are making it out to be.

Okay, but what about when you're not in the base? Or when a gunner, assault, or sniper attacks the turrets from inside their own base (an exaggeration, but it's possible)? Or when an assassin comes in under your radar? When a juicer comes after you or another pro, there are plenty of ways to stop them. But generally you or your teammates don't just sit in the base looking for turret-seeking juicers. Even if you do, an assassin can sneak in and destroy at least one of them. Or some long range exploding weapon can blow one up from a distance. It's not as simple as just being there when we're talking about turrets.

Juice chaining by itself can be dealt with when pros are concerned. I'm specifically talking about the effect it has on turrets.

can we PLEASE get over the fact that "get better at the game" is NOT a valid excuse?

He actually didn't say that. We both acknowledge that there are ways to stop a juiced pro. I don't think he's calling me a newb. I could be wrong though...

there are ways to stop a juicer, especially after they can no longer get full health while juiced.

but the juice still needs fixed. it should be rarer to get, not such a common weapon, earned with time or more cash that it takes now, something.

bottom line is the game shouldnt be an uphill battle trying to kill as many pros on a whole juiced team as you can. juice shouldnt be that easy. everyone in the game shouldnt be able to juice every minute. its hard to argue that, no matter how easy it is to kill a juiced pro, its intended for the game to depend strongly on juice and being juiced for most of your playtime. you should have most of your fights be non-juiced pros, juiced enemies that kill 3 pros and 2 turrets should be a rare event and not happen 30 times a game sometimes.

no matter what happens, juice needs to be only possible to get every 2 minutes if you try your hardest. and it should be dangerous to get juice, so you can die trying to get it, and you have to really work.

supports healing <$200 worth of turrets/bots from the safety of their base surrounded by turrets is NOT work or risk. snipers getting 1/8 juiced from each burst of explosive round fire that destroys a group of bots from his base surrounded by turrets is NOT work or risk. it takes neither of them too long to do it either, less than a minute.

having to go melee bots is acceptable. getting shot while taunting is acceptable. both are risky and take longer to do.

by the way, im hearing that im pretty much the only one of 4 people in this forum who are NOT USING THINGS WE ALL AGREE IN THE FORUMS ARE CHEAP AND EXPLOITIVE INGAME. i hope im hearing wrong and that forum people wouldnt dare exploit juice and wall-shooting when they all say in the forums that its a broke aspect of the game and an unbalanced way to win too easily without too much work.

when i play support, i wont use juice from overhealing i do to do anything but activate it in my own base and taunt for money with it, no killing or turret destroying. if im a sniper (im almost never one), i dont destory bots unless our turrets are gone anyway, and if i do i also juice and destroy more bots, not pros or turrets. if i buy juice with earned money or go melee bots with support/sniper, ill go kill a turret/pro/moneyball with my juice.

Juice doesn't make your bots walk faster.

That is all.

lies. i can prove this quote is lies through the "transitive property of algebra".

juicers kill you and turrets in mass genocide rituals, rituals that currently go on every 30 seconds during a game.

you and your turrets kill bots, and bots that are dead walk a lot slower.

ERGO... IF they kill you, AND you slow down bots, THEN they speed up bots. its algebra.

anyway, dont try to argue that juice-chaining, juiced-turret-raids, and juicing-by-boosting-way-too-quickly arent reasons why people lose games. you simply cannot keep bots out your base under most circumstances that your base gets juiced and everything in it dies.

the ONE exception to this is if you escape your spawn without getting juice-killed, you go to their bot spawn, and you kill their bots repetively, and the enemy team really is dumb enough (or just going for kills ignorantly enough) to not realize the bots they have that should be breaching your ball are MIA.

i did this once on ammo-mule. as a support, i put a hacked firebase outside their moneyball-circle, underneath the middle part of the walkway that merges in front of the moneyball-circle-top-floor-opening. the enemy team juiced our base and kept doing it all game, but they didnt win. no, why? because they didnt get any bots to our base, why? because all thier bots died on spawn as my firebase could shoot both bot spawns. THEY NEVER NOTICED THIS ALL GAME, one pro did try killing me and my firebase once, failed and quit trying. HE SAW ME DOING THIS AND DIDNT CARE.

but with even a hint of understanding of the game's objective, abuse of the juice problems lead to winning.

When I'm not in the base? When they attack from outside the base?
I don't have to be in the base to defend it.
That's the whole concept of map control.
The enemy can't attack your base if you intercept them in their own base or mid map.
My team does not LET people build up juice in the first place, that's the damn point I'm trying to get through to you guys.

If you see somebody mid map with glowy armor, you force that juice out of them before they can reach your base to use it. Or if your an assassin like me, you stab them in the back and waste their entire juice bar before they can even activate it.

If a sneaky sin slips past and grabs a few turrets, well wtf ever.
Because his base is also being raided.

If you actually move out of your base and push the enemy team at the start, hold map control and such instead of trying to turtle in your base, juice is not a problem.

And no I'm not calling leonyx a noob, apparently tom thinks I'm some sort of elitist now :roll:


I'm not high and mighty, I just don't have a problem with juice.
If 6 guys all juice rush my base at once its not because juice is broken
It's because myself and my team all fvcked up...badly

That said, supports gain juice way to fast for doing nothing in complete safety.

well either play with me more often so i dont only win 1/5 the games im in from my team not helping me defeat the juiced enemy, or design me some genetically-created "boltaktion"s to play in a party with.

i liked how that one guy a while back put it...

we shouldnt have to be better at juicing to beat juicers. we shouldnt have to master killing someone as soon as their pinky-toe passes their spawn-room barrier after less than a minute in the game. i do sometimes manage to do this. im tired of this being the only way to win, with the rare instance of a game nobody juice-chains THAT badly.

nobody can argue that juice should be easily obtainable every thirty seconds in a game. (unless they are a uberent game designer/developer; now that i have said something, i bet the developer will come see this and say something. id be happy to finally hear their verdict either way).

it should be a difficult accomplishment to juice, a feat, unobtainable every single minute during a game. somebody should have to actually earn it xept me, the assault...