Don't Confuse FUN! with Balance...

Air Strike has an extremely long cool down compared to the assassin and tank, who can both kill entire waves with quick auto attacks. It gets the job done, but at a greater cost. The only benifit is the range from which Air strike can be thrown.

As far as turrets, they are great for taking out lightly armored turrets placed on the front line. It gets far more difficult to air strike Rock-it turrets that are covered next to the money ball. There is also the aforementioned long cool down that supports face as opposed to assassin's and tanks, who have blind on a shorter cool down and can wreck the turret with melee attacks/jet gun. The gunner's split mortar outclasses everyone though. Hack is a very valuable skill though, so i'm not sure where I would place them.

As far as firebases are concerned, they are better for holding a line than pushing due to their stationary nature. Holding a line should be another category in which support is top-tier. The support can hold 1 lane and push another, but can't bounce back and forth between the lanes as quick as the assassin, and will run out of air strikes quickly if they attempt to do so.

The support can do a lot of the pushing related things, but they cost high amounts of investment in terms of money for the air strikes, and time in the cooldowns. Tanks and Assassins can simply use the sword lunge/swipe or death blossom for no cost.

Where to begin...

Discussing only the class vs class portion of the game and claiming there are balance issues with it while completely ignoring every other aspect of the objective based game is absolutely silly. You end up buffing/nerfing classes for isolated incidents and unintentionally changing the entire metagame. You MUST take into account every one one of the Class strengths and weaknesses and weigh them against each other to have a fair balance assessment of what is going on. Talking about which class would win in a fight at [insert range here] is fine, but to suggest that the "weaker" classes need buffs solely on this basis is incredibly short sighted.

There are "balance issues" with class vs class because some classes are better at class vs class than others. Other classes are better at turret destruction/line holding/bot pushing/farming/map control/insert your category here.

If you made a thread saying Class X is better than Class y at range z, and left it at that, I would not take issue with it. However, you are going as far to say that some of the weaker classes (which have strengths in many of the other areas in the game) should be buffed to make them better in Class vs Class situations while completely ignoring any other strengths or weaknesses they may have.

If that is NOT what you are saying, you need to clarify your statement.

As for your example on lazerrazer...

-Why are you defending with an Assassin?
-An assassin would have little trouble with a tank nailing the money ball from inside the left tunnel. At that range, he has to be using the rail gun. Crit Shuriken his fatass, and laugh. He should only be a problem if he has level 3 deploy to regen health (not sure how fast it would regen against crit shuriukens, and few people spend ranks in deploy.)

-A sniper in the tunnel would be a different story due to ice traps. The tunnel is one of the few areas in the game the assassin can't enter without setting off the trap.

-A gunner would be horrible against either of these. Sniper = Head shot or Double tap if lvl 3 deploy. Freeze trap = headshot or flak + smg. Tank = Product grenade 3 for blind + AoE nuke against the easy to hit gunner, then rail to death, Charge 3 if he comes in the tunnel, and jet gun what ever is left while hovering over the slam effect with a jet pack.

Notice how important the TUNNEL is in the fight? It's called positioning/map control.

In any event, that situation you described would be more determined by map control/using terrain than pro selection, which is another reason only considering class vs class match ups without any regard for the million other factors present in balancing a game is silly.

An excellent post with very good points.

One thing to point out is that the endorsements really have a huge impact on how you play that class. If you put rate of fire gold on the tank then the rail gun becomes a viable weapon: the tank now has better range damage than a gunner assuming he can aim well. Then again if that same gunner had accuracy gold he could probably take the tank at long range.

At the same time some endorsements are just not going to work. Putting skill recharge first on a gunner is a waste considering how quickly your skills recharge.

"Completely ignoring." lol. And I'm "silly."

In your own post, you said the Assassin would have trouble because of the ice traps. Is that because of map control? No, its because of class match up.

That means that the "Long range" Sniper has the upper hand against the close range assassin in close range.

Thats a balance issue regardless of what map its on. lol. Just as it would be an issue if the assassin was better at long range then the sniper.

Could you imagine a sniper zooming in, then seeing an assassin, then hiding because the assassin sees them. lol. No, thats silly, he has the advantage. But if an assassin sees a sniper, they have to respect his traps.

The assassin has no way to disable a trap. If an update tweaked an ability of the assassin to allow them to disable traps. Thats all it would effect.

Therefore no change to the "metagame."

And that has nothing to do with how fast an assassin can destroy a bot or turret.

"There are "balance issues" with class vs class because some classes are better at class vs class than others. Other classes are better at turret destruction/line holding/bot pushing/farming/map control/insert your category here."

Read your own post. There are balance issues with class vs class because certain classes are better vs other classes.

Thats what this thread is about.

And if you go back to my original post, I specifically stated that I DO NOT believe classes to be under or overpowered. (And no, I didn't say any class is "weak")

The tank can kill anyone at close range and its also effective at long range. But its not a great mid range class in comparison to others.

The assassin can't effectively kill "everyone" at close range, (i.e. tank, sniper traps, FB+ opponent after update) but the class is most effective there. mid to long ranges this class is generally outmatched. (Not that its impossible to kill at those ranges, just that its easier with other classes)

AGAIN, no class is essentially over or under powered. There are simply classes that are better at various ranges/scenarios while others have more limits.

That's the best point you've brought up and I agree with you that there should be a way for an assassin to negate them. My vote is level 3 smokebomb allows you to jump out of ice traps.

On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with the balance, but it would be cool if this was changed?

Assassins can avoid people at range with their cloak. What does it matter if they can't fight at that range? Like the assault class they can pick their fights and that is one of their strengths.

Assassins can smoke bomb jump over traps to get to sniper perches, or walk around them cloaked in wider areas like steel peel. She can't enter the tunnel because its too narrow if the traps are placed at the door and the roof prevents smoke bomb jumps. She still has the option of banking Ninja Stars if she needs to get the kill, but if her goal is protecting the money ball, all she has to do is keep the sniper from shooting it (with the S-launcher and Crits).

The assassin is only severely disadvantaged against the sniper because of the positioning in this scenario, as well as the hypothetical of leaving the melee character as your sole line of base defense.

Actually I did NOT say, there is nothing wrong with the balance. I said that no class is over or underpowered. I said there are simply classes that are better at various ranges/scenarios while others have more limits.

For instance, some classes are "very effective" at any range while others are only sufficient at one. If your key range is countered, then what?

As for why being able to fight at different ranges matter is because there are big counters to the assassins close range offense. Tanks hp, Ice traps, jumping, etc.

Although they are able to close the distance with awesome efficiency, its not always good to do.

Some classes can effectively kill at any range. When you counter one, they can switch. Others don't have that luxury.

The assassin is actually disadvantaged against the sniper, tank. and after the update she'll be disadvantaged to the support and any other pro near a firebase.

And smoke jumping up to a sniper is advantageous to the sniper. The sniper has three traps. He can place two on either side of him while standing on one. Assassins have to land before they grapple. Landing near the sniper and onto a trap is bad news.

I speak from experience. I play alot of sniper.

Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right that there are times when assassins can be successful against tanks, snipers as well as post update supports. Especially when they suck. lol.

But overall they have a class advantage over the assassin. Thats a close, a long, and a mid range opponent. (mid range meaning firebase)

And just to be clear, skill is the number 1 determining factor in regards to living or dying when two pros battle. But I speak of classes considering equally skilled opponents. In which case, class choice plays a big role in the outcome.

Is that a fair assessment?

I have said this before and will say it again.

Assassins can grapple snipers even if they are standing on a Lvl 3 trap. Period. To argue otherwise is simply to be wrong. Just grapple as you are landing. You will be surprised with the result. This makes Assassin maybe the best class at countering a sniper. Period.

Also, I don't think there is such a thing as equal skill. Skill is different for many different situations. For example, some people might be much better at sniping, but may not be very good at avoiding Assassins when they come nearby. To use examples where static skill is implied is an oversimplification that really proves nothing one way or another.

Everyone is cheating, because I can't lose.

Not only is this true, but a sniper camping three traps is likely near his half of the map and is not really doing much for his team unless he is one of those that literally kills/assists every single pro that ever comes across his cross hairs. Even then, team oriented snipers who trap key map control points are usually 100x more effective than snipers who have tunnel vision and only support themselves with the traps.

The assassin could probably even ignore this sniper and focus on bots/turrets like they are supposed to. Another reason why focusing on class vs class alone is silly.

And yes, the amount of assumptions required to produce an equal skill environment is also silly. Even if you achieve the result, terrain and location can alter the outcome of any battle.

Then we agree.. to disagree... Strongly! lol.

Its almost obvious but, I'll explain..

Smoke bomb jumping, and landing ON an ice trap with the intention to grapple a sniper may be the worst possible solution.

Its not a counter, its a gamble. Heres why.

1. Smoke Bombs. "Bomb" is the key word. They're loud. Any decent snipers will recognize it and look around.

2. You assume the sniper is standing still. Camping ice traps is not the same as standing still facing one direction. It means holding an area. (@Im hudson. The sniper has 3 traps. He can use them for himself and/or his team and still be an absolute asset to the team. Implying otherwise is untrue. Besides blocking enemy paths does both anyway)

3. You intend to land on the ice trap. lol. Missed grapple = death. And if he's aware your landing and he faces you, he can survive your grapple. But your probably not surviving his.

Don't get me wrong, he could be standing still as a statue, and even then you could fail the grapple.

This isn't a Counter its a Gamble. Odds are stacked in the Snipers favor. "P-E-R-I-O-D."

Saying that is the best counter is basically saying there is no counter. Just a random chance you might kill him. If your a sniper and you "keep getting killed" by an assassin, your not a very good sniper.

To give you a better solution, (although not an outright counter) would be to use an assault. Jet pack above the traps while firing mid range. Then throw a mine to clear the traps and damage/kill the sniper all before you land. From there its a battle as to whom will live. But at least the assault has a decent counter to the traps.

And thats a solution you can consistently use effectively. If the assault dies give credit to the snipers skill. To use smoke bombs to land in a ice trapped area and assume you'll land directly behind a sniper and be able to grapple him while getting frozen is Not dependable.

And as for "equally skilled" it more so means both pros being competent at their class. So people wont compare horrible players vs great ones and use that as a representative sample for all. So no, its not "silly."

Apparently, it's silly to not want to compare biased results.

The whole idea of "a good (X) can...." borders on a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

And yes, some classes have an inherent advantage notwithstanding player skills. That shouldn't be countered by "A good (X) can." It's dishonest.

I think Uber tried too hard to make each class it's own niche, but what they did was make it so that kids resorted to using tons of cowardly tactics to do good. To me the closest one can come to a balanced class based game would be Shadowrun, and that's because any class can use any weapon and any ability. This allows people to fight close up, far, mid range, no matter what class, because they can do whatever they want. Each class has their own perks and advantages built in, but it doesn't define what the person has to play like.

Bad example.... the human is the best race because he can use tech without a magic penalty. Meaning he can run as fast as an elf (with more health), or he can move at decent speed with a minigun. Starting with more money also means you can usually get an early deathgrip on the game with the right purchases.

Way to put words in our mouths. We never implied a smoke jump, although you could use that. Additionally, since you didn't even know you COULD grapple upon landing, I think I will ignore your advice about how much of a "gamble" it is.

Additionally, notice I said MAYBE. He MAYBE is the best counter to a sniper. Read before you answer.

I know that it is impossible for people to change their minds on the internet, but you should actually think about what is being said instead of just arguing against it for no reason.

Edit: Also, you completely missed the point about equal skill not existing.

The end result of this game is you have really versatile classes versus really narrow ones. I know you meant Shadowrun the video game and not the RPG, but this game strikes me as very Dungeons and Dragons (Third Edition) -ish. While Wizards of the Coast maintained claims of play balance for the near decade of D&D 3.X, there was a huge disparity between the top tier classes and the bottom. Clerics can actually replace most classes, while Fighters are at the bottom of the tool. If properly focused, they can be serviceable, but you're working twice as hard to generate a build that's inherently not as good.

Supports are amazingly versatile, as are Snipers. Even moreso than the Assault, who is supposed to be the all-rounder. On the flip side, Tanks and Assaults really aren't all that versatile. In reality, the only niche classes are Assassin and to a lesser extent Tank, because the others all feature more versatility.

Please, please, please don't get in an argument with me over this, because you will lose. While Humans in SR are the easiest and most balanced race in the game, elves and trolls can easily take them on. Everything in SR has an effective counter, and you can't say the same about MNC. If you want to get into a real SR discussion, you can hit me up on AIM iiDeadEye or xbl Ldeadeye, because I can teach you some things.. but I'm not going to go on a rant here.

Uh, someone needs to take their own advice. lol. Besides argue, what did this post add to the topic? Any input regarding classes? Any unique perspectives pros can use in game? Not really. Maybe you're just "arguing for no reason." lol

"We never implied a smoke jump....... ALTHOUGH you could use that." Lol. Thats why I discussed it, because it was an option. NOT because it was implied. Were having a discussion about classes and that is one of their abilities. So why not discuss it? As you have said yourself, it could be applied.

Yes, I knew you said it "MAYBE the best counter to a sniper.... And what I said still stands. Saying that the assassin is the best counter to a sniper is like saying there is no counter. The sniper has the advantage. (long, mid, and close range) It changes nothing. lol

To simply jump over an ice trap, means that you are walking/running towards the sniper... Thats an even worse idea unless you saw him arrive and only throw one trap. lol.

Why? Because the sniper has three traps. He can block both paths while protecting himself with traps as well. The assassin has the mobility to bypass jumpad, normal paths etc. by way of smoke bomb.

I never said anything about landing inside a trap and then grappling being an option or not. (So lets not assume what the other person knows.) I said landing in a trap is a bad idea, in general, for the assassin. So don't "put words in my mouth."

And just maybe you missed the point and Not me.The point is that we simply disagreed. Not that someones not reading or comprehending. (So don't take it personal. lol)

So lets both take your advice and read what you have said.

"I think I will ignore your advice"

"I know that is it impossible for people to change their minds on the internet."

Those to go together like thongs and buttcheeks. lol

Lastly, if you have anything constructive to add to the topic, I'd greatly appreciate it. I don't "ignore" other perspectives. I'm still interested in what input your playing experience has granted you.

Remember, were discussing our opinions on classes. Its okay to see it differently. Just try not to result to insults to make a point.

Accusing someone of "putting words in mouths, not reading, arguing for no reason" (which I believe has been accomplished) is not beneficial to the topic.

Thanks.

You're right, you didn't say that you couldn't grapple when landing on an ice trap, so I apologize. Maybe more fitting would be that you think it is a bad idea, whereas I do not.

I guess we will continue to disagree about Assassin vs. Sniper. Especially who has the advantage where, and just how effective the traps actually are. It has been my experience that traps are very easily avoided if you know what you are looking for. Additionally, snipers are not just sitting in one spot waiting for Assassins. Their mobility is limited, especially while looking down the scope. Yes, they may notice the Assassin coming, but the Assassin can back off and wait a little while, with the sniper being able to do almost nothing about it. It just seems too often that Assassins just keep charging anyways. Of course an Assassin will lose if ANY class sees them coming, because that is the point of the Assassin. Speed and invisibility. Additionally, if a sniper is camping on top of a freeze trap to protect themselves, they will be limited in where they are moving, thus making the jump grapple even easier.

Dont take this the wrong way as im just joining this thread and game. but how fast can shurikans take out a sniper?. as in would that be a viable way to sneak up and avoid the ice trap. i understand the assassin is mainly based on the close range ability. and a sniper is based on long range ability.

but the sniper clearly has means to safe guard from short range attacks, can the assassin not nullify those by an attack from afar ( As in a tactical mid range distance ) and lull the sniper to move from his place over a trap?.

if im wrong then im learning and apologies if i have misunderstood the class v class convo here.