Things that bother me - A cumulative discussion thread.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. Love love love love love love LOVE. It's nearly taken the place of Team Fortress 2 as my favorite game, but hey, nothing beats hats.

Anyway, as anything will have, there's always something that will bother you. For me, there's a lot of things. I'm going to list them here and try to come up with ideas to balance what I feel is unbalanced. Feel free to discuss at will.

The Assault

• The grapple. Now, don't get me wrong, the Assault's grapple is extremely useful for getting rid of close range enemies. But, that is exactly the problem. the Assault appears to be a mid-range offensive class, not a close-range killer (such as the Tank or the Gunner). Giving the Assault an attack that will either kill the class instantly or knock them across the map and off the edge is not only extremely annoying, but not fitting for his class. I feel it's overpowered, but hey, I can't talk, I main Support. Anyway, my suggestion would be to lower the horizontal knockback a considerable level. In its stead, give it a great amount of vertical knockback. On top of that, nerf the damage. Like I said earlier, this should not be an instant kill. Let's keep instant kill grapples to the Assassin. These changes would allow a class to fight back after being grappled, but, they are still semi-easy to pick off. Also, can anyone say grenade launcher airshot?
  
  
• The machine gun. I'm not quite sure if MNC has this, but it could take a lesson from Team Fortress 2. TF2 has something called Damage falloff. I see it mentioned in the Protips, but it is apparently not very strong. What the Assault needs is more extreme falloff, if it even exists in the first place. The machine gun, although inaccurate, is still a deadly force at long range, especially with an accuracy endorsement! The Assault has a grenade launcher for a reason, he should be using that at ranges the machine gun should be doing minimal damage.
  
  
• The strength of the Grenade Launcher. Really, I should be saying "the weakness." The Grenade Launcher does barely any damage against turrets, from what I've observed, and still minimal damage against pros. Splash damage is also negligible. It'd be nice if both the damage output and the splash damage were buffed slightly.

The Support

• The Heal/Hurt Gun. Heals bots too fast, hurts enemies too slow! A quick Support can have a small attack force of overhealed blackjacks and other bots, nearly requiring the enemy to kill the Support before even attempting to tackle the bots! On top of that, the "hurt" part of the Heal/Hurt Gun is absolutely useless. It's only decent at finishing off enemies with extremely little health, and in that time, you could have just shotgunned them. My suggestion is to buff the damage a small amount, while slowing the rate that it heals bots. Keep the rate at which it heals friendly pros the same.
  
  
• The Shotgun. God, I love this thing. It's strong, and takes a skilled hand to use. But, it's just a little too strong. My suggestion is to lower the damage a decent amount, while buffing the firing speed a considerable amount. Crazy, eh? It makes the Shotgun a fast-firing lethality, but requires good aim to make use of it. Thus, it will still be effective on those pesky Assassins that try to front-grapple you after they fail at backstabbing you, yet not so effective on, say, a deployed Tank.
  
  The grapple. Absolutely, positively, utterly useless. It does almost no damage, no knockback, and only serves as a disruption. First off, don't add knockback to it. A kick in the crotch shouldn't send someone flying. Rather, buff the damage. Not instant-kill-from-the-front strong, but enough to actually make a Support think "I'm this close, should I grapple or shotgun?"

The Sniper

• The Sniper Rifle Grapple. Similar to the Assault, the Sniper's rifle grapple simply does way too much damage and knockback. Apply the same suggestions I gave for the Assault's grapple here.

The Assassin

• The blade's front grapple. Even low-health classes should not be killed instantly by this, fully upgraded or not. A botched assassination is a botched assassination, why should the Assassin be able to recuperate by simply grappling again after her victim turns around? Lower the damage considerably, to that of the Shuriken's grapple, possibly a tad bit higher.
  
  
• Cloaking during a grapple. Utter BS. Nothing more. The only way I can think of fixing this (other than simply removing this, cloaking instantly after a grapple is just as annoying) is to add a short time (not more than a second) after a successful back grapple where the Assassin cannot cloak. She can still dash and smoke bomb, but not cloak.

The Gunner

• The Dual Miniguns. Apply exactly what I said about the Assault's machine gun to this. Damage falloff needs to either be increased or added to the game. Gunners can kill most any class at mid-to-long range with anything above decent tracking.
  
  
• Slowdown? This seems strange, I'm aware that a Gunner's slam will slow down, but it feels like that when shot with the Minigun, I slow down considerably (my Bronze endorsement is Speed). This would be fine, but the effect seems to last for a very long time. If it's not just me, please, shorten the time that the victim stays slowed, it's not fun being hit by one or two bullets and being slowed for 10-15 seconds, even after the Gunner has died.

The Tank

• The Jet Gun's range. It is much much much much much MUCH shorter than what the graphic shows. Either shorten the effect's length, or lengthen the range to fit the effect.

Turrets

• What's the point of ShavIce and Long Shot turrets? Because, personally, I see no point to either of them. The ShavIce needs to deal at least a small amount of damage, and the Long Shot needs to be more of a long-range Lazer Blazer rather than a mortar.

That's about all I can think of. The game overall is excellent, but balance changes are in order.

Come, discuss!

Damage fall off is already significant at long range, granted the assault rifle will always out-range the shotgun. If you play either assault or gunner you will notice that it takes much longer to kill an enemy at a distance, so unless you're good at tracking moving targets it doesn't happen all the time.

The hurt-heal ray is fine as it is, although newbie supports frequently try to use it as their main weapon. It isn't for killing people, the shotgun is for that, use the hurt ray to keep yourself alive before you go back to healing bots or teammates.

The grapples in this game serve the same function as the knife in MW2, they ensure that fights take place with a reasonable distance between opponents. If you don't take an accuracy endorsement and think you can stand on top of someone to negate their advantage, prepare to have your *** tossed back. Also works to punish bad assassins who think front-stabs should always kill.

The jet-gun's range is only as long as the flame, not longer nor shorter. You're playing a three dimensional game on a two dimensional display, so depth perception is kind of tough unless you're familiar with everything.

Long shot turrets are incredible: they can destroy enemy turrets; help your bots push lanes; frustrate snipers/other campers; and just generally score you tons of assists and money.

Shave-ice turrets are also incredible, don't misjudge them just because they don't deal damage. If you've ever played the infinite blitz then you'd know that being able to slow down enemy bots en masse means having much more time to destroy them before they reach your money ball. Two DPS turrets and a well placed shave-ice are much more effective than three DPS turrets, plus they reveal cloaked assassins and gremlins.

After reading this I can only say that you need to play the game with other classes (because you clearly play primarily support) and to try out new tactics beyond the obvious cut and dry stuff.

90% of what you just is total stupidity. What should I do with a shotgun? The most powerful close range weapon in the game or try to grab? Hmm.

The grapples are to powerful for everyone else? What? Everyone has a short ranged attack, the grapple.

LOL on the turret ideas.

Heal/Hurt gun needs more DPS? No. Its fine how it is. The healing is fine and the damage is fine for a target locking gun that you can have your back to and still hurt.

Only thing you got right wass the assassin cloak glitch.

First of all: What class do you play the most?

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  The front grapple only kills snipers and assassins without health endorsements, and if you play one of those classes you should have a health endorsement.
  
  

This is the only way an assassin can kill a support camping by his firebase, so removing this would be an indirect support buff.

Anyone with decent tracking will know that it's not much longer.

The reason I suggested the buffs for the Heal/hurt gun is because it should be an equivalent to the shotgun, not a backup healing weapon with a useless attack mode.

If they exist to make enemies keep their distance, why do half the classes have useless grapples?

I've never once seen a Long shot turret do anything outside of Blitz, same with ShavIce. You are correct that ShaveIces are absolutely phenomenal in Blitz, but to me, they serve little use in Crossfire.

I've tried out the other classes, but, as you said, I main Support, and that obviously shows.

I'm fairly sure the Jet gun and the Miniguns are just a tad bit stronger than the shotgun at point blank, but what do I know?

3 classes have grapples that do something, and the other 3 have grapples that do barely anything. What I'm suggesting is that they be balanced out to all be at least decent, rather than having two extremes.

LOL on your useless response as well. Constructive criticism is nice, you know.

If you're locked on and turned around with the Heal/Hurt gun, there's a fairly good chance you're running away, and won't be locked on much longer.

The Support, of course. I said that.

It kills Supports without level 3 Passive and health endorsements, and a Support doesn't need a health endorsement. It also does major damage to the other classes.

The Assassin, although a mostly lone wolf class, should still need to use Teamwork. It's not that hard to get a Gunner to destroy the Firebase and then the Assassin can back-grapple the Support. Also, Shurikens. Small damage, but still a decent force if you're hitting the Support and not the Firebase.

I only read the first point, about the assault grapple, and I totally agree. That move is one of the big reasons I don't play tank anymore.

3 people instantly laughed at this guys post. So many threads complaining about real issues and he list the things most people agree work and are fine.

This post is not needed and should be continues to be mocked.

You're the only one laughing. Get over yourself and try constructive criticism.

I don't know if you've played all of the classes in the game or not. I want to comment on your feedback from the perspective of someone who has.

As far as your Assault qualms, I'd like to direct you to a video commentary put up by a very good player and commentator. The video shows that the grenade launcher actually does do a great amount of damage against players, but it has to be used with a certain amount of skill (i.e. you have to be able to use the wall bounce). Granted he has a RoF endorsement, but I think it's fine as it is. At 1:35, the video also shows that using the AR at long range is not effective.

Also, what grapple are you referring to? The charge grapple or the grenade launcher grapple? I haven't had problems with either of them. Yes, he is a mid range oriented class, but the charge is his only close combat weapon. It also is not an instant kill, as seen at 6:00 of the video I linked earlier, where he charge grapples an Assassin, who lives through it.

As for the Support, the heal/hurt gun is not meant to be a primary source of damage, but it can be if you use it effectively. It already does a great amount of damage for not being required to aim that much AND stealing health for yourself. And also, I don't find the Support's healing too bad, especially since there are plenty of weapons/skills that take out an entire wave instantly (airstrikes, death blossom, assassin lunge).

The shotgun does not have good range, which is why the damage is so good. I believe that it's fine as it is.

Secondary weapon grapples are always bad on every class except for Assassin. I would avoid using it on Support, especially since the Shotgun is much better.

The Sniper Rifle grapple is definitely not an instant kill. I've been grappled several times by a Sniper and lived through it. I'll try to find some footage to illustrate this. Also, the knockback is what makes the grapple useless. Think about it. Would you ever use the grapple if it only did medium damage and had minimal horizontal knockback?

Assassins most definitely do not instant kill with front grapples unless you're already weakened. The cloaking during the grapple is also necessary for living through turrets and firebases. The point of the Assassin is to a) clear lanes, b) destroy turrets, and c) pick off enemies who are separated from their team. If you don't work with your team, you'll get grappled by the Assassin. Simple as that.

Miniguns are weaker at longer ranges. You can see this illustrated at 5:59 in this video. The player (who is admittedly pretty bad at the game) tries to shoot a weakened Assassin from long range with the minigun, but he fails. Shortly after, the Assassin (or a different one) approaches him, and he is able to quickly get kill her. The damage falloff on the minigun is less extreme than that of the assault rifle, but it is still noticeable. Things melt much more quickly at closer ranges.

You're probably approaching the gunner incorrectly. The gunner is very powerful, but he is also very easily flanked. The minigun works fantastically when you're facing forward, but it's very easy to eliminate a Gunner if you get the jump on him from the side or back. I have no comment on the slowdown, as I have never noticed it remaining for extended periods of time before.

I haven't noticed the Jet Gun issue, but if it does exist, I agree.

ShaveIce turrets are not very useful in Crossfire, I agree. Damage for them would be nice. Long Shots, however, are fantastic as they are. If the Long Shot hits ANYTHING and that thing dies (whether it is a bot, player, or turret) within a short period of time, you get assist money for it. This means that the Long Shot is a fantastic source of revenue.

The majority of your changes are slight value changes. Honestly, I believe the game is fine numerically as it is. Everything seems to do a reasonable amount of damage.

About the assassin cloak thing... no. Just, no. The class with the least health in the game that also only has cloak as an effective tool to kill someone can't use it during a grapple?
A solid 30% of the time that you are right up some ones *** with the grapple it still doesn't land. Any person with half a brain can tell when an assassin is behind him unless the assassin does something smart, like the RB lunge followed by a grapple (if you can land an RB lunge on the target). Otherwise the gunner, tank, assault etc. will see some retard in a cloak standing behind them with their hand up their you know what just waiting to get smashed or sniper grappled off the map. You have be pretty smart and actually have some skill to consistently land grapples and survive to get away.
Even after landing a successful grapple chances are that their teammates are not far behind at all, it is just plain luck whether an assault comes around the corner and sees the grapple going on or if no assault comes at all, you can't help it. If that assault does come you can bet he'll just start shooting away at you doin' your thing... and with the lowest armor and health in the game?... bye. If you are grappling someone while cloaked you can still be shot sooo easily. All it really helps to protect from is bots and turrets... which if you think about it I'll say again. Lowest health, armor whilst being completely vulnerable (not able to run away, smoke bomb) should have to deal with bots, turrets and pissed players? no

First off, thank you very much for your excellent feedback.

Secondly, I have played all the classes in the game, just not as extensively as I have Support, where one could say I generally base my argument from.

Thanks much for directing me to the Assault video, it really does show a lot. I honestly thought the GL did less :u

I'm fairly sure it's the GL grapple, whichever one where he uppercuts and you quite literally go flying across the map.

The Heal/Hurt gun definitely does NOT steal health, it only drains it. That's why I feel the damage should be increased slightly. It would fit well with my Shotgun change as well.

I guess the Shotgun could be left alone, but for what it is, it is kind of overpowered. I love Support and I admit that.

As for the Shotgun's grapple, it just seems that his only grapple being beyond useless is just... stupid, really.

It must be an instant kill for either lower health classes or I'm exaggerating slightly. And yes, I would use a grapple. It's disruptive, and deals a decent amount of damage.

And yes, they do. It happens to me multiple times every game before I get Level 3 Passive on Support. It just bothers me that if an Assassin fails at back-grappling you, she can just as easily kill you or do a great amount of damage... from the front. And then a simple dagger or sword to the face kills you afterwards. Sorry to compare this to another game, but, imagine if the Spy from Team Fortress 2 could backstab (an instant kill) from the front. They're essentially the same class, so what's the difference? In TF2, the Spy's knife does little damage unless it scores a backstab.

I guess I am approaching the Gunner incorrectly. I try to stick to my team, but when I see a bad situation, I run. Habit from TF2, once more. A Medic can't hold his own from mid-to-long range, nor can a Support, so I get the hell out of there when I know I can't out-heal an enemy Gunner's fire. It bothers me when I'm running away, my team mate dies, and he then proceeds to pick me off at mid-to-long distance. Cover would be the obvious answer here, but in open areas? I'm a goner. The apparent slowdown effect doesn't help either.

Once again, thanks for constructive criticism and other help.

The Hurt/Heal Gun does steal health. Not only is it stated and utilized in the Support developer walkthrough, but it is also mentioned in the in-game tips. It doesn't steal a LOT of health, but it's enough to justify the low damage and lack for a need to aim. Watch at 7:50 in this video and you will see the Support using his primary to heal himself (it is not natural recovery because his health bar stops recovering as soon as he stops firing even though he isn't at full health when it recovers).

The Support's shotgun pretty much is an instant kill on squishies at close range. I tend to find no reason to grapple someone when I could just kill them instantly. Going off on a bit of a tangent, the nice thing about Support is that he is only really strong at close range. Both the HH gun used offensively and his shotgun require the target to be in close proximity, and his Firebase's range also isn't too great. He's a pretty easy target from mid range and long range.

As for the Assassin, I realized the problem: you probably aren't using Gold Armor. I highly recommend it, because it allows you to survive all front stabs from Assassins with plenty of health to spare. You almost always want Gold Armor if there is an Assassin on the other team.

Then I wouldn't have Gold Skill recovery! D:

Haha, yeah, I understand. That's the problem with Gold Armor. It's so much more generally useful than the other level 3 endorsements.

Here's my suggestion: create two custom classes of the same character. One of them should have whatever you want as endorsements. The other should have Gold Armor. Use the one without the Gold Armor to start the match, but if you ever start to have trouble with Assassins, switch to Gold Armor. I believe you keep your skills as long as you're still playing the same "position."

I will certainly try this out. Thanks!

I think the only thing I use the shotgun grapple for is to interrupt juiced enemy supports hacking our turrets and to generally waste time of other juiced enemies.

Try playing a game and building two or three long shots, upgrading them to max (and hacking them since you play support). Then you can come back and tell me they don't do anything in crossfire. Unfortunately this only works if your team is really pushing the offensive, since long shots are lightly armored.

The shave-ice is better for the exact opposite situation, and are indispensable for defense. As I said before, slowing enemy bots enables your turrets to deal more damage and gives your bots more time to catch up to them. They also prevent enemy assassins from marauding your base and most pros are wary to wade into their range since being slowed by one frequently leads to death.

Also, the AR is not that great at long range. Good, but not great (it just doesn't throw bullets fast enough to deal damage like it does at shorter ranges).

The Support's grapple is actually one of his best tools... It gives you a free shotgun kill.

Once it connects, mash RT near the end. You'll shoot before they can even move. It kills every class minus a Tank with gold armor.

Yeah, this is probably why the grapple has such low damage. Although IMO it's safer to just pump a couple of rounds into the enemy instead of forcing yourself into the grapple animation where the enemy can try to save their teammate.

I totally agree with nerfing the assassin. At this point, she's still capable of occasionally being useful, and we CAN'T HAVE THAT!

I mean, sure, her grapple is her primary attack, has an ungodly cooldown time, and can't be used if someone's jumping/flying/moving/breathing, but in that 1/100 occasion where she hits a player with half a brain, she does too much damage!

Also, nerf the Shurikens. They're too powerful at range and Assassin should have to use those backstabs I want nerfed.