How does the community feel about this?

Assassin health regen is so fast that it makes sense for them to be a low priority

I rarely heal assassins because of their quick regen and their cloak ability. I have been bitched at by assassins who are burning to death, I healed them while they are about to die, and bitched because I gave away their position after the fact.

There's a difference between "low priority" and "don't heal them ever".

If i'm out and about, sure - don't heal me. See also: support who zaps me while i'm cloaked on the upper ring on steel peel. From the floor. Giving away my position.

But if i'm in your face and visibly low on health or on fire... most sins would appreciate a quick jolt if you don't have something more useful to do at that exact moment.

Oh, and any player who complains about being healed while on fire deserves to die.

I don't have a problem with most supports, mind you. They help me, i help them, i don't make fun of him for being fat, etc etc.

I was the one, and I have no problem admitting that. However, you got it a little bit off.

I said respect isn't for retards, followed by the comment about tanks. This was in a game where roughly half the players (over both teams) were playing as tanks. Bad tanks. The kind of tanks that use their charge to get right outside of jet gun range, then keep firing and walking towards you as you back-peddle away faster than them, and chipping their life down to nothing... repeatedly. Never even bothering to change from jet gun to railgun despite obviously being out of range.

I stand by what I said, that tanks are the retards of MNC. Of course there are some good ones, but overall I find most enemy tanks to be fairly useless unless they have a support on them. A good tank is one that knows how to use the railgun, will juice turrets to death, and doesn't just 'hurp durp' forward with mouse one held down. I only recall seeing the latter that round. Such players are only like a speedbump... they'll stop bot waves if they're alone, but don't know how to effectively push into the enemy base, don't know how to deal with the situation when an enemy pro shows up, die quickly, then lose any ground they've gained/have been defending.

Can anyone really deny that players who use the sole strategy of 'approach from front. Use up charge from afar & M1 with limited range weapon' count as retards? At least when they're on the enemy team I can punish them with repeated killing, but having them on your own team too is very frustrating, especially when they walk past enemy bot waves that are shooting them while employing that strategy.

If I was ashamed of what I said, maybe I could say it was roleplaying?

In any case, I'll readily admit that I'm acerbic in these kind of games because so often I find people on my team who have no idea what they're doing... supports who don't ever heal, snipers who have the lowest kill count on a team and refuse to change to a class they can actually be useful with, gunners who use their juice to minigun a level 2 rockit turret from afar rather than using mortars, and the ever present sins who are allergic to enemy bots. I simply don't have patience for those types anymore... especially since I can't even type a message to them with some guidance, and if I do manage to struggle through the communication issue, the information is usually ignored.

At some point I started taking screenshots of that type of game at the end of a round. The type where I've got 1 1/2 or 2 times as much cash as the next highest player on the team. I don't usually upload them because that feels like it would be conceited, but reading what you wrote made me go and count them up. I see over 30 screenshots like that, so hopefully that can help explain another reason for why I'm out of patience... Just kind of tired of being teamed with those kind of people.
One in particular really irks me, and that is of a 6 vs 6 game where I had 133 bot kills, and all five other teammates had a combined ONE bot kill. To top it all off, I had the only pro kill too, and doing that (letting a single bot wave through) was what dropped our shields. So the enemy team got 32 kills on my teammates, and they all did precisely nothing... no kills, no assists, one bot kill. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but it feels like this kind of thing (to a lesser degree) happens all the time with my teammates. :x

To put it plainly, the point of any competitive game is to win, and I don't enjoy losing because of bad teammates. I play enough that I get stuck with bad teammates a lot, and my patience for them is rapidly exhausted over the course of my playtime. You have to remember this is a team game and as such a terrible teammate will actively hurt your team by a) giving the enemy cash through deaths and b) occupying a player slot that could be filled by a more adequate player. So if a person who should be helping is actively hurting the team's efforts, am I supposed to be happy? Am I supposed to coddle them and say 'good job'? We've already established that I can't do much in the way of helping them improve, either by virtue of the awful text system or simply not being listened to. No, the only thing to do is let them know they're not alright in a way that's coarse enough they won't completely ignore it. It doesn't matter if they're on the enemy team, because they can easily end up on the same team later.

This is exactly the same thing. It is impossible to clearly and quickly explain that they need to attack (especially during OT), so you do what you can to elicit a reaction and hope that its an improvement. You were trying to get your team to leave the base, I was hoping that the people in the server would realize that very few of them were being any degree of effective, and hoped they would try something they were better at... particularly the ones who were relying on the tank's health and charge, and who likely thought that they were doing fine on account of mostly fighting other fairly bad opponents.

Honestly, I'd like to type more, but I know that most people won't read all that I've written as it is, so I'll stop for now and hope that if someone wants to say something about the issue, they bother to read this first rather than tl;dr-ing.

There's a difference between being unhappy with your team / someone in the game and actively being insulting.
If you don't like it: move servers. You act like you're entitled to more enjoyment from the game than the other 11 people on your server. Suck it up buttercup.
Insulting people is only going to make them think "That jerkwad doesn't know anything. He's an arrogant *** and I will now ignore everything he says."
If people won't listen / read your advice then tough for them. Move servers to somewhere where people will listen.
Or start your own server and kick people you don't want. Either way: don't be an ***.

And I don't just mean you llama. I mean everyone who thinks that insulting people is the best way to get them to play better. It isn't. Anyone who's being an *** gets ignored no matter how good they are (and generally they aren't as good as they think they are).

Just give up and accept you'll be playing co-op for any gaming satisfaction you desire.
Try find games with a leader board and work with mates to top that for your competitive desires etc etc.

I understand where you're coming from completely and I can no longer bring myself to play anything competitive/versus. Unless I have a couple of mates whom I know are excellent at playing as well.

Then you get complaints of team stacking, and questions about why you aren't playing competitive, like you have to if you're decent. *roll eyes*.

So eventually you give up, are short with people who you know will never learn and suddenly you're the bastard for not trying to help the situation. Even tho you know it's impossible to improve.

Can't win, play co-op, you'll be happier, I know I am.
Rofl

That is the problem. It isn'ttough for them, its tough for the team mates that they are with. Its tough for every team they're on in the future, too, until they realize that what they're doing isn't effective. Their poor performance effects more people and over a longer period of time than the alternative of someone eliciting a change in their play style by being abrasive.

You say that, and many others would say the same thing. However, regardless of what is said it is actually fairly effective compared to the alternative. The person being addressed may even become belligerent too, spouting off a little anger back at you, but more often than not they'll change what they're doing. This is especially true if they're on the enemy team and consistently being beaten, and that change in behavior can improve the game for all the teammates they play with afterwords. Occasionally you'll run into a person on your team who responds by going into full griefer mode, doing whatever they can to hurt the team... but as soon as the they're put on the enemy team in a following round they either do something new/more effective, or are heavily beaten down and able to see exactly how ineffective what they're doing is. Again, that gets them to do something else.

Silence causes no change, and most people that have the problems that need addressing don't seem to have the awareness to realize that being at the bottom of the scoreboard game after game means they should try something else. We've already established that, thanks largely to the chat interface, one can't give advice easily and even if a person does say something like 'The main job of an assassin is to kill bots, not pros' it is largely ignored. Yet if one makes a fuss then the person in question will be more likely to take note that they're being addressed... that they're being berated (something that human nature dictates a person not want) then the person becomes more aware of their status as an albatross around the other teammate's necks.

A person can only move servers so many times. I admit, if I see a player spawn at the start of a round and build several level 1 laz turrets immediately and set a firebase down right beneath the moneyball, I'll probably say something regarding it and leave... effectively writing them off as too new or remedial to harangue effectively. However, I have a little problem with that because then that leaves the other 9 (assumedly) decent players to suffer from that player in that and the following rounds. No, you say I'm acting like I'm entitled to more enjoyment than the other 11 people but those players who are obviously awful are the ones causing their teammates to struggle to carry them and not providing a decent fight for the enemy to enjoy. Is seeing someone be a bit of a jerk to a bad player more unpleasant than being crushed consistently because of them? Would you rather them blunder about and give the enemy juice buying money again and again, or have someone call them out and try to get them to at least try something that might be better?

The difference between guiding a player to become better and insulting them is massive. I hope you never become a teacher.
If you were trying to get past someone in public (let's say: an entrance to a shop in a mall) you'd say "Eexcuse me" or maybe even "Hey buddy. Move it" if you're being short. You wouldn't say "You foetid buttmonkey. Move your retarded self you ignorant <insert swearing here>".

Notice the difference? One is going to probably get the result you want. The other is probably going to start a fight.

There are 10 other people dealing with what you call "the retard" and yet they manage to stay civil. Do you have impulse control issues?
Start off telling them what they're doing wrong. Then (if they don't listen) be terse, be short. Don't be a jerk. Don't be insulting.

Resorting to insults simply shows either A) you can't verbalise your thoughts, B) you're unintelligent or C) you're a jerk who should be ignored.

Ruining 11 other people's game just so you can feel superior is... well.. being a jerk. If noone else was complaining then maybe you're the only person who had a problem.

Find a server with a better group of people or join a clan with a private server. You're obviously easily offended and need a buffer from the public (and vice versa).

To use your example, if I were to say the equivalent of 'excuse me', it assumes that the person realizes they're doing something wrong. The people being berated do not generally realize how ineffective they're being and how badly their very presence effects their team. Using your example, saying 'Hey buddy. Move it' is often something I do. As I said before, it is generally ignored and escalation is required. If someone yells at you to get out of the doorway, though, you're likely to take note and get out of the way. Bravado aside, nobody is going to start a fight because they were being inconsiderate, blocking a doorway, and called on it even if they were called on it in an insulting way.

Some people see a person floundering about, playing horribly and not helping and think "Hey, cool, one less enemy to worry about and who I can get easy cash from." Many just go about the game with their hands too full with their own gameplay to even notice they're being held back by the person. Others notice the problem but figure it isn't worth it to try to type out an explanation (as it is difficult to do so, and usually ignored, as previously mentioned), or think they're not going to be playing with the person long enough to bother. In most cases they aren't dealing with the person, but ignoring or exploiting them.

Quite frankly, you CAN'T verbalize your thoughts in that game in the way you can here. Text limit, buggy chatboxes, and the fact that while you're typing the enemies are off earning cash and ganging up on your teammates are all contributing factors to that. As for 'B', it seems you're trying to make a personal attack that is obviously false considering that I have the ability to engage in discourse with you here and address individual statements rather than making a broad generalized quote of 'more stuff' and ignoring much of what was written. As for C, I already addressed that, despite your assertion that 'jerks should be ignored', it does in fact produce results. Much more quickly than ignoring the issue and letting a person flounder around game after game, too.

If you're not the one who is blundering around hurting their team then them being berated shouldn't really ruin your game unless. If you aren't on the same team as the person(s) then you probably won't even know its going on unless they respond outside of team chat, or they don't seem to understand whats going on and the criticism spills into global chat to add an extra element of pressure to get them to alter their actions. Either way, unless you have alien/super human levels of empathy where you not only feel actual pain at words over the internet, but words directed at someone else, then it shouldn't 'ruin' your game other than maybe a little discomfort. You claim that jerks should be ignored, yet you can't ignore a jerk that isn't even directing his comments you in the game?

It seems the opposite is closer to true, given the (not so) subtle attacks in your posts. As for finding a server with 'a better group of people'... is it not preferable to create better people from those that are mucking about at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak? More decent people is preferable to fewer, no matter how you look at it. As for the public needing a buffer for me... I don't think this is ESRB rated 'E'. People are not so fragile that being insulted about their inanity in a game will scar them for life. They're playing a team based competitive game and hurting the other members of whatever team they're on. They shouldn't be allowed to ignore that fact peacefully when it is simple enough to get them to do something different with a few unpleasant statement.

I'm not giving them a comprehensive guide to be better... Most of the people who get the jerk treatment don't even realize that they should use explosives rather than bullets against turrets, and don't realize the problem with being killed repeatedly by enemies. The kind of guidance they'd need is beyond the scope of a quick ingame chat. An abrasive comment can get them to at least try something other than what they're doing, like get a sniper who has no kills to try an easier class for people who can't aim or get a support to step out of the base and actually heal his teammates.

You keep making me rehash points that I've already made. While I've taken the effort to go over your statements and put counterpoints to various things you've said, you simply brush all of my reasoning under the carpet as 'Stuff' and 'More stuff', while taking on a rather irrational and angry tone. That isn't the way to create a valid argument, given a venue like this where one can be verbose without being shot up.

Don't try to turn a point into a personal attack. What I meant here is this is how you come across in the situation.

(corrected quote).
Being a jerk in the general chat after a game is going to be visible to everyone. Publicly berating everyone is going to be noticed by everyone. You keep saying that you're using abbrasive comments to help people. What you just did there was help noone. You provide no advice (except maybe: don't play tanks which is wrong advice), no links to further help, nothing but debasement. You don't need superhuman levels of empathy to feel when someone has completely dropped the levels of fun in the room by having a fit. Everyone else was being pleasant throwing around the GGs and having fun.

Enemies are not earning cash during endgame chat. Sure the text limit is annoying: doesn't mean you have to shorten "Tank: you can find a good playing guide at <insert weblink>" to "Tanks are retards".

For all you know these people "mucking about" might have been playing for the first time and you've coloured their view of the community instantly. First impressions are a huge thing to overcome. You might not be scarring someone for life but you may have just made a couple of new starters think "this game is full of asshats! I'm going back to playing <some other shooter>." and that simply shrinks the pool of players. And if peoples' friends aren't playing then they soon stop playing. You could have just shrunk the pool of players because you couldn't be civil.

In fact the more we look into this the more it looks like you were being a jerk facerolling a server full of people just having a fun game and learning how to play.
You can defend your actions as much as you want. You're unlikely to change my mind. I don't like people being downright obtuse in a game because they think they're superior. I will listen to someone giving me hints however.
I'm probably not going to respond again. I think I have made my points and I doubt I'm going to change your mind either so there's no point really arguing. Just do me a favour and if you see a player named Zenstar screwing around don't be a Jerk. I'm either trying out a new class or having a bad day. Either way I don't want to deal with attitude.

EDIT:

I was trying to prevent a massive wall of text post. you can always scroll up to see the previous post. I quote "stuff" so that your name is visible as a reference. Your reasoning was not "brushed under the carpet". It was concidered in my response. I just didn't feel the need for a point by point analysis. I have provided something more along those lines in this post for you.
As for angry tone: maybe a bit miffed but not really angry. You're may be reading me a bit wrong. I certainly don't like people being asses in games I play in but I also understand that there will always be people being asses everywhere (especially the internet).
As for irrational: I've provided reasons with sound backing, that makes it rational. Just because you don't agree with my reasons doesn't invalidate them.

Much better! I applaud and thank you for addressing specific points. It seems more focused now, which is useful in discussions that grow long like this.

Now, if you recall that in the the specific case cited by B33rChiller, I said that about half of the game's population was made up of tanks. Bad tanks that didn't seem to understand their weapon's range or that they were slower than other classes. The other example was for more generalized purposes when it isn't a nearly a majority of people all suffering from the same issue. Quite frankly the simple advice WAS to try something other than tank, or at least try playing tank in a less 'hurpadurp' way, to put it colloquially.

Again, in general the issue is brought up during the game rather than waiting for the end. Even so, after looking through everything one has at most 25 seconds and a steep character limit. I don't keep links to guides queued up to past places, and even if I did a link won't be the clickable hyperlink kind. Above even that, most people don't seem to realize you can see old chat messages with the ` key, in the console. All in all, there is no expedient way to accurately provide enough pertinent information in 25 seconds to 4~6 people regarding exactly what each of them are doing wrong and how to better themselves. Even to one person, or most of that group which were sharing similar problems, it isn't something that is simple to do... again, especially when your text limit is so small that you'll find yourself cut off halfway through a sentence. That last one, for example, was 234 characters.

I would prefer a smaller pool of competent players to a large pool of incompetent ones. This is a personal preference, and can't really be argued against from a debate standpoint. As an example, Free weekend may have been a little fun, but overall it was more aggravating because one couldn't find a decent game by joining a random server.

Your mom didn't think I'm obtuse. She said I was downright acute. No no, that was horrible and obviously a joke rather than any sort of serious. Anyway, as long as you do your share of the work if we're ever on the same team then it doesn't really matter much to me whether you like me or not. As far as perceived superiority goes, you seem to be the one claiming that. The only indication of that which I can see is that I think I'm better than the people who've been defined in this conversation as 'the bottom of the barrel'... which pretty much by definition makes the majority of people superior to them. However, it is occasionally fun to poke jabs at those others who obviously have a higher opinion of themselves than they should in game if they're being beaten. As for taking hints, its good that you do and you will be better for it, although if you're here reading and posting on the forums then I'm sure you're beyond the benefit of most quick in game hints. Like I said before, most people ignore hints and instructions. I can't tell you how many times I've told a support he needs to heal things instead of shotgunning and grappling blackjacks, only to be ignored (and thus encouraging the kind of thing we've been talking about in order to get them to change their strategy).

Fair enough. I prefer this way, personally. I also admit that, due to the nature of textual communications, I may have perceived you as being more belligerent than you were intending. Such is an unavoidable pitfall where words that must be typed without intonation.

I'm not really trying to counter any of your points or bring up any new points here so I'm not doing the whole point by point thing.

Meh. I think we see things from different points of view.
I'm happy letting people screw around a bit as long as everyone is having fun.

TBH: I can see where you're coming from with a lot of your comments _except_ for shouting at everyone in general chat after the game. I may not agree with those points, but I can see where you come from. But insulting everyone after the game really serves no purpose. It's too broad and makes you look bad. If you have to be insulting say something like "OMG! You people really need to go read some guides on the MNC wiki before playing any more".
I'd prefer it if you'd suggest going to the MNC wiki / uberent forums without insulting people but at least serve a purpose with your insults. Negative reinforcement without positive reinforcement doesn't get the job done especially when there's a delay between the bad thing and the shouting.
/shrug.

Maybe she meant you had a small "angle"? Bad response to an old joke.

Jesus, why do you people take terrible players this seriously? Random servers are the equivelant of pubs. Usually if I see anyone that's horrible on my team or the other team I'll just laugh (a little or a lot, depending on what they do) and keep playing. If you win, you carried, if you lose, you probably got pub stomped (or your team really was THAT bad, in which case don't worry because it's not even your fault and if anyone accuses you of it you can just tell them they're a moron).

Obviously the best way to get unskilled players to improve is to berate them.

I'm going to give you folks with rage problems (llama et al.) a protip: Getting angry is OK, swearing is OK, calling everyone on your team an idiot is OK, cursing broken game mechanics and every class for being OP or skill-less is A-OK. But don't hit your push to talk key/type out your rage in game-chat.

That way, everyone has a better game, and will think of you of as a pretty chill guy who's fun to play with and doesn't afraid of anything.

Basically. The MNC community in this country is smallish - you have people who play it regularly and we're all vaguely familiar with each other. Most of us aren't dicks. There's a couple but.. you get those..

It's nice to join a server and have the guy playing sniper/whatever go "why do you have to be on the OTHER team?!" as soon as you say hi to everyone. :lol:

it is pleasing to have comments like that from other players
much better than the usual rage and insults

Why do you guys like that? I hate it when people say anything about me being good.

Had this guy yesterday who said "vlane it's an honor being trounced by you".
I absolutely hate comments like that. Don't comment on that stuff. I can get off on my leaderboard ranks, I don't need anyone who does that for me.

Well, i don't need praise lumped on me like i'm some kind of deity, but i do get a chuckle from knowing that people fear having me on the prowl.

Pretty sure i've seen you around, actually. You play Tank a lot? I seem to recall being chased around by you. That said, i get chased as soon as ANYONE sees me.

I love when some ******* joins and trash talks about how epic and awesome he is.I always try to anti stack, so im in oppositing team and all i do is, that i hunt him down, ever-frickin'-time i see him, even if it means danger of death.

I actualy kinda enjoy it, its a warming feeling when someone tells you, that you do your job right