Juice... We all know it needs some fixing..

Juice needs to be fixed. Changed. Nerfed. Removed. Something.
Half the buff, or make the cost 1000.

Juice wins/loses games more than anything else by far.
It's all about what team can spam juice the fastest.


I can't count how many games I've played where juice control and constant juicing wasn't an issue.

The cost value of juice buying vc. cost value of turrets + respawn times shows that it is obviously unbalanced.

Why fix what isn't broken. Sure juice machines could use some minor tweaking, but if the opposing team is constantly juicing, odds are, you were going to lose anyway. Juice simply speeds that up, or allows a method to break heavily defended bases which otherwise couldn't be touched otherwise. For example, a set of lv3 hacked Rockits is a nearly impenetrable defense which even the Gunner's Mortars would have extreme difficulty bringing down, let alone having a competent Support healing them.

We all know it doesn't need fixing.

Assuming everyone in the MNC community agrees with you is a very bad thing to do, considering you've only 8 posts and are rather unknown to the forums.


It's the general consensus that Juice needs some small tweaks, but it's also the general consensus that Juice is not broken, and being Juice rushed is generally a case of bad map control, or a broken team.

If they nerf juice, they'd need to nerf turrets. It's practically impossible to beat an overhealed 3.3 rockit without juice, and still tough even WITH juice in most cases

This is extremely true.

I post on the steam forums more often, as to my post count.

The jump from 2-3 on rockit turrets is insane. Perhaps they could nerf the lvl 3 turrets, or nerf the damage the do to pros.


Speaking purely in terms of fun, even though I think juice needs to be tweaked for balance, juicing isn't really fun. Always watching the juice buying stations really isn't fun.

I get map awareness is vital, and I completely agree. But watching one area and always trying to have your team have juice so its on cooldown just isn't as FUN as simply pushing lanes, teaming together, and regular stuff.

I'm not saying juice is a bad mechanic. I think it's great.
But perhaps they could reduce it's buff, or even better, simply make juice more expensive.

That way those who get kills/bots and don't die often are rewarded, but it isn't a matter of always running up and hitting F to a pink screen so other people can't.

perhaps learn how to handle a juiced enemy, rather than let it get to you then come here screaming nerf. Just remember grapple.

Agreed.

It is about who spams juice if they can spam it enough. However, that also implies that it is moreso about whoever can PREVENT spamming of juice.

Check my juice guide, it's part of my complete strategy guide, and on its own, in both the guide sections.

Basically, having map control prevents enemy juicing, and juicing yourself by using map control and staying alive prevents enemy juicing. Then when the enemy is juiced, preventing them from getting to your base blows it, grappling them blows it, and killing them (with focus fire, ringout, pancake, headcrab, headshot, airstrike, or any of those while they are grappled) blows it.

I always seem to be the one actually killing juiced pros, making them take 3 juiced assassins to clear a base of turrets (so we rebuild them as fast as they get destroyed, and often they end up destroying none while juice)

I don't think that says what you want it to say.

The power and immidiate threat a juiced player presents is part of what makes MNC a rush to play.

Juice chaining is a problem, because it's almost impossible to come back from once the enemy team get some momentum. The juice itself does not need a tweak.

That said, they can spawncamp you with juice all day but if they let an assassin loose on the field, they'll have to wait for overtime before they can get that moneyball.

I believe i've once read that one of the jobs of a tank was bot defense. The biggest problem with juice chaining is, that one player has an easy chance of gaining enough juice quickly, which essentially means that he gets to kill a lot of your bots. Especially against assassins a tank escort can be quite useful. Now if your teams is GENERALLY doing bad tactics won't do anything. :I

If someone is juice chaining, it's because you are letting them do that. You can't get juice chaining off bots alone. They need to kill a lot of players, and destroy plenty of turrets.

This is coming from someone who abuses juice chaining with tank. Sometimes I'm able to get two or three juices in a row because I am completely dominating the other team.

As for balance, it's fine. Juices are the ONLY WAY to stop a turtling team. If you have RockIt Turrets level 3 with hack 3, you have no choice but to use juice it and even then it takes a seriously long time to do it. It's not easy when you have players who will grapple your ****.

If juices are going to be nerfed, you will need to nerf the turtle strategy as well. Otherwise, it's fine and stop being bad.

Ahh the good ole days where juice dispensers had like a .0005 second cooldown.

I'd appreciate it if I wasn't insulted. I'm not SCREAMING nerf, and I often do grapple juiced people. All the time.

These strategies and ways to handle a juiced enemy are great. I think BroTranquilty brings up some excellent ideas for dealing with them.

Of course those things are all great ideas. That being said, just because there are *ways* to handle something doesn't mean it's balanced.


I've played games where the *way* to beat a level was to play for 5 minutes, and run back to a save point.
Just because there are ways to handle something, doesn't mean its best for the game. Best for gameplay, balance, fun, etc.

I get that lvl3.3 rockit turrets are ridiculous, and juice helps to clear those.

That isn't my problem. If someone or two people use juice to clear a 3.3 turret, then that's fine they should only have to do it a few times.
The annoyance where the game is less fun, and more tedious and frustrating, comes from juice chaining and constant juicing from one or two players.

Perhaps they could make it so you can only buy juice 4 times per game. That would limit juice chaining (from buying it at least) and also would not help those who turtle.

They are lots of solutions, and we all agree that no game (esp. a multi-player competitive one) is ever complete. Part of the reason that many games like WoW, or League of Legends, do so well is because of constant balance tweaks.

There are techniques for handling juicers. I understand that. But that doesn't mean its a perfect system.

All they really need to do is tweak the vendors. A scaling cost per player would work wonders in eliminating juice chains from single players.

Something like that would work very well.

If you kill people they lose all their juice.

The only addition I would make would be to have clear indicators of who as how much juice so you know who to try and kill.

Other than that just continue to tweak juice gain levels to keep it balanced when any issues crop up. Juice is fine.

The glow can be hard to notice when people have a full juice. But the lines they spout can be an indicator. There's no easy way to do this beyond what they have now, without adding visual clutter.

If someone uses juice to beat you in a 1 on 1 somewhere away from your base i consider it a win. Even if they kill me, i made them blow thier juice to kill a few bots. This can be a fun way to make them waste cash.

Juice chains are only a problem if your team is a problem. I've actually managed to turn a juice rush around a few times.

Mind you, as an assassin it's surprisingly easy. Can't take our shield down without thier bots. Can't really spawncamp an assassin. too busy juicecamping to defend thier base. Don't know thier ball is in danger until i'm already putting a juiceload of shurikens into it. We ended up winning one of the matches i have in mind. It's hilarious when cheap tactics fail to a far more basic tactic.

Juice needs to either be either tank like or a damage boost but not both. You need to understand that the reality that in a standard match true coordination to shut down a juiced player just isn't going to happen with anything approaching regularity. Teamwork can't be enforced by the metagame in pub environments and comp MNC just isn't going to happen with the current playerbase.

I'd prefer a tank-like version of juice where you do the same damage (but boosted on buildings) as un-juiced. Players fretting over their KDR just aren't going to jump on the grenade so to speak with the current version of juice.

Dumbing down a concept for the lowest common demoniator is a terrible way to approach balance.