Endorsements and Balance

yeah its just division and multiplication I mean .. if he didnt feel he could explain it.. well..

It will always be hard to balance a game that has variable health available with perks.
I don't know why devs insist on doing it.

"So we have everything sorted?"
"Yup everything at base is A O K"
"Ok, now we also have a perk that will increase some classes health 100%"
"Oh Shii"
"And one the increases damage output"
"Ohhhh SHiiiiiiii"

No?
Am i being illogical?

It's the same as dual wielding, the weapon's either too weak by itself or too strong when there's two of them.

Calm down children. Whatever was said is between me and Mail. Stay out of it.

Welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay.

I personally like that the entire reply is couched in a way to be as offensive as possible to ensure people respond.

Did you do that on purpose or is that just you being you?

While I agree that buffing bad stuff is a good way to approach this, I think the cream of the crop may still need to be taken down a peg to make room for the other endorsements. I am not talking massive nerfs, but some smaller nerfs would be good.

I like the idea of balancing the endorsements.
But since I have no PC experience .....

Juice is terrible. The concept itself is bad in a game that asks you to focus on staying alive. Only bad players should take juice with the current concept, and in its current state even the worst players would be better served by other endorsements.

Health regen could be better, but not much better.

Speed is really bad given that the speed pickups exist in the game. They are so easy to find and such frequent pickups that they invalidate the endorsement, especially for bot killing classes like assassin and tank. The only classes that aren't working the lanes as frequently like support and sniper really don't need this endorsement very much.

Crits is cool for juicing, and meh otherwise. I hate the concept of crits, but the base chance should be increased with each level by at least a percent or two to make this more valid.

Reload is not good enough compared to RoF and Clip size. It needs another aspect. I suggest that since the reload speed is supposed to be increasing the character's reaction times that this endorsement allow "buttons" to be pushed more quickly with each level. Annihilator, ejectors, and bot spawners can all benefit from this.

Basic Math: Here is an ideal case for each weapon with clip size during combat that might ever actually exist.

Assault Rifle: 25 Ammo, 1 second Reload, 0.1 second firetime
Ammo Clip: Avg 5 seconds to fire 50 rounds
Fire Rate: Avg 4.5 seconds to fire 50 rounds

Dual Minigun: 150 Ammo, 5 second reload, 0.05 second firetime
Ammo Clip: 15 seconds to fire 300 rounds.
Fire Rate: 15.5 seconds to fire 300 rounds

Sniper Rifle: 4 Ammo, 2 second Reload, 1 second firetime
Ammo Clip: 8 seconds to fire 8 shots.
Fire Rate: 7.6 seconds to fire 8 shots.

SMG: 10 Ammo, 1 second reload, 0.1 second firetime
Ammo Clip: 2 seconds to fire 20 shots
Fire Rate: 2.4 seconds to fire 20 shots

Shuriken Launcher: Identical to SMG
Identical

So, it turns out you are right for 3/5, but only barely. Even in these niche circumstances it is a stretch. RoF is ridiculously good, boasting a greater than 40% increase in rate of fire. Compared to most boosts this is the largest effective gain you get, with the exception for armor for some characters.

Gold cirt > Gold armor

Gold juice is already useful early game and in overtime.

Reload speed are play-style augments.

So, im my opinion, all good. Either way, can we take a nerf-substitute-patch so we can break our nerf-addiction here? Boost endorsements if you think they need it, but let's not be nerfing things under the guise that "the others are weaker" when I have a small feeling it's more like "i got killed by it".

BroTranquility, what does it feel like to be wrong about everything?

btw guys... as for the skill regen, in the balance file it's quite clear i think,

theres a value which says how much the bar regens per second, and a full bar = 60, so 60/n = time to regen skill, thus:

60/(n+n*endorsement) which in gold skill regen's case would be 60/(1.5n)

grimbar, don't confuse people with a base number that doesn't exist plz


so to clarify: (for the non-endorsement values/time to regen fully, check my accurate stats page)

BAL_FLY_REGEN_A/B/C =5, thus with gold 60/7.5= 8sec till full bar is back
BAL_EXPLOSIVE_REGEN_A/B/C =3/4/6, thus w gold 13.3/10/6.67sec
BAL_A_CHARGE_REGEN_A/B/C =4/7/9, thus 10/5.71/4.44sec
BAL_HACK_REGEN_A/B/C =1, thus 40sec
BAL_STRIKE_REGEN_A/B/C =1/0.75/0.67, thus 40/53.33/59.70sec
BAL_FIREBASE_REGEN_A/B/C =1/1.5/2, thus 40/26.67/20sec
BAL_GSLAM_REGEN_A/B/C =4/5/6, thus 10/8/6.67sec
BAL_GGRAPPLE_REGEN_A/B/C =4/5/6, thus 10/8/6.67sec
BAL_GDEPLOY_REGEN_A/B/C =10 thus 4sec
BAL_GRENADE_REGEN_A/B/C =4/5/6 thus 10/8/6.67sec
BAL_H_CHARGE_REGEN_A/B/C =4/6/8 thus 10/6.67/5sec
BAL_TDEPLOY_REGEN_A/B/C =10 thus 4sec
BAL_FLAK_REGEN_A/B/C =3 thus 13.33sec
BAL_TRAP_REGEN_A/B/C =3/2/2 thus 13.33/20/20sec
BAL_LGRAPPLE_REGEN_A/B/C =4/5/6 thus 10/8/6.67sec
BAL_SMOKE_REGEN_A/B/C =3/4/5 thus 13.33/10/8sec
BAL_CLOAK_REGEN_A/B/C =2 thus 20sec
BAL_DASH_RECHARGE_A/B/C =10 thus 4sec (note however this name is different, so it may actually work different aswell)


pffff. there... now calculate with those numbers please (since unless you can prove me theres more to it, that's the proper calculation for it)

We can pretty much (other than Bro) agree Juice endorsements viability is negligible at best, in a few niche situations it works but rarely is it worth giving up that slot for something else.

Here are two alternate juice endorsements that would make the endorsement much more useful.

Version 1:
Increases juice gained from picking up juice boxes by 10/15/20% (note: does NOT effect juice gained via damage.)

Version 2:
Increases duration of juice by 1/1.5/2 seconds

I liked just tacking on the starting juice to your meter as permanent (thus, every time you juice you start with 2 juice boxes with gold).

I never had a problem making weaker endorsements stronger. I had a problem with:

Nerfing any endorsement. Get killed by it, find a way to deal with it. Weak endorsements can be made stronger, but put down the nerf stick and quit staring hungrily at endorsements you think are "too strong".

Armor. They made it the exact amount for a reason, the dev's tested numbers and certain endorsements clear certain milestones bt 25. Really, changing them or class's base armor screws with fine numbers.

Rate of fire. Already some weapons experience caps of usefulness at gold, and the other 2 are well-spaced. Changing it would either make gold negligible, or the gap between them negligible so bronze will suffice.

Criticals. Stacked with rate, natural crit boosters, and juice effect, 5% does a whole bunch, where 1% still adds a large enough jump on high-damage weapons to cause kills in 1 shot less considering you manage to score a crit. It already does enough on "glass cannon" builds (I beat gold armor gunners with a gold crit gunner with 1/2 remaining health, and that is a huge dps difference)

Anything else is okay in my opinion, at least I found a good use in each endorsement on previous builds. Tanks can almost use them all.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CPrmiJkH aha

Just wanted to point out, sniper rifle does 225 per shot (its only 100 for unscoped)

Also doesn't your particular notes work more on a technical standpoint rather than a in practice standpoint?

For instance, assume the gold clip size with 8 shots. Which TECHNICALLY gives a higher DPS, it is infact in practice only higher over a longer period of time. With in the span of 4 seconds you've done less damage than the person with gold ROF.

ROF is better for engaging an enemy. Clipsize is better for bot killing. Rarely will you put in more than 4 shots in a single fight with a person am I wrong (assuming all are body shots its still enough to kill any class.)

However you will shoot a lot more when clearing bot waves, thus the clipsize ends up becoming a more practical choice.

I was calculating for unscoped, or do you see "Sniper rifle (zoomed)" in the descriptor? It says base damage for a reason.

This is not some sort of internet duel you are waging here, you were just being kind of a **** for no reason. There is no need for this kind of unwarranted behaviour. If in the future you want to harass me privately keep it to PMs instead of waging some kind of public war against me. I try not to take any previous experience with a person into a new discussion, so if you have some argument induced grudge with me, drop it; I'm not going to remember.

Increasing juice duration is probably not a good idea. Personally, I think making the 2 juice box bonus permanent (persists after juicing) is probably an easier and better solution than increasing juice box gain. Making the juice bonus permanent effectively increases juice gain by shrinking the juice bar and is easier for players to understand (they can clearly see how much juice they get from the endorsement.)