Let's Talk about Mods in Competitive Games

All of these things you list should be absolutely fine. Better vision, better eco management, and easier control are all perfectly valid options. If a player finds them helpful, they should use them, and otherwise they should not. As long as everyone is honest about using these mods I can't see any reason not to allow them.

but that is a clear example of cheating, as is the instant roll-off mod. It's cheating because it changes the underlying rules of the game for one person only. Any change to the balance or fundamental unit mechanics is cheating and by definition not fair. It's like one person runs the race for 100m and the other for only 50. The other mods you mention are like one person deciding to use an ankle brace and the other not. Ultimately it comes down to preference as neither changes the fundamental rules of the game. It's not unfair if I have a mod and you don't, as long as we are both told that mod is allowed. If the community decides a map mod does change the game in a way that isn't fun or fair, then we can agree not to use it in tournaments.

I think this is a red herring and I've seen it quite a lot in this thread. The only kinds of mods that we know of that count as actual cheating would be server mods, and right now there is no way for such a mod to make it into a tournament game. And the existing mods being debated, simply give a player more information and control over their units. Most sports allow various personal aids and equipment. Sports teams spend millions trying to engineer the best racecar or running shoe. At some point it does cross a line and the regulating body has to say, this changes the game too much. I don't think right now this can be said for any of the existing mods.

I really can't understand why you would remove a mod that simply adds visual effects. It's not about being 'too stupid' to install a mod. Exodus can easily decide which mods are beyond the scope of fairplay. This mod in particular greatly improves the UI and makes it much more beautiful. It's really hard to understand why anyone wouldn't install it, unless they feel it actually disrupts their play. No one is forcing a professional runner to buy nikes or whatever; they'll make their own informed decisions and practice with the equipment they feel best suits their needs. It's really not an issue of fairness; it's an issue of deciding if there are any mods - besides obvious cheating mods - that fundamentally alter PA in a way we don't want. For my part I am all for 'cyborg' style gameplay. Even if there was a mod that totally automated all of your economy and micro, there would still be a fair game to play. Some people might come up with better economy mods, or find ways to exploit players using such mods.

It seems the real problem here is there is a missing ability to regulate what mods are at play. So everyone is freaking out about a hypothetical situation where PA becomes more about what mods you can make/install and not your skill. I think that day is still very, very far away. PA is still young enough and malleable that it is up to us to decide what is the most fun and interesting competitive play and I think it would be really silly to exclude simple UI mods or minimaps from that definition.

edit: it seems like a general consensus could be to exclude automation mods (I don't mind them, but don't use them either). They seem to blur the line between what the game is about in a way that many top players are not comfortable with. I think there is very little solid argument against UI mods however. The incentive to create better and better UI Mods is a good thing, and we should encourage it both casually and competitively.

Sure. But these mods leave markers all over games. uber Map users can't be surprised, AutoFactory fucks with your build queue, and Free Energy users never drop below 100%.
If we outlaw these mods, people who aren't cheating won't use them. We can track their usage through certain patterns AND through the announcer mod. Don't like it? Too bad. It's an unfair advantage to have those mods. Get over it.

The problem with your line of argumentation here is that it only sounds that "bad" if you go with total over the top hacks.
Super chess computer? Pink models in cs? Clearly cheats that more or less break the game in a way that removes the game.
None of the actual UI mods do this. Far from it.

Not true and 99% of the test games were vs AIs. If I had spent dev time of that mod instead on practicing PA I'd be sure to score rank 1 in upcoming tournaments really. Hundreds of hours time in it.



Also "this vision of the developer" stuff: Modding is part of the vision quite clearly. In fact most of the mods (automation mods specifically) that people seem to be really concerned about will only be possible now that Uber added specific APIs to do them. Meaning: APIs to give commands at very high apm from code. Those APIs exist for the sole reason of making mods like this. The game itself does not use them. So based on that Uber is specifically asking us to go that way and make the very best UI possible through mods. PA has always been about that, but we're getting better and better APIs now. Which imho can only lead to a better UI for everyone.

Really all concerns I am seeing usually revolves around either the wish that everyone has the exact same UI or the idea that mods are more powerful than they really are.
The first point is subjective, but it is what it is and the 2nd point is simple: There are no mods that allow you to have a super chess computer.

You're inviting a witch hunt based on small indicies that maybe something is amiss by doing that.
Also I wish uber map prevents you from being surprised. Damn that tunnel vision I get is real, ignoring it far too much xD

It's a really, really strong claim to say Uber map users "cannot be surprised". And if that is true, then it should become the new standard for competitive play. Too much of tournaments are decided simply because a player didn't keep track of some invasion. PA's third resource is attention, and it isn't a good thing. We need to be getting as much information to players as possible, so that the best, most interesting tactics and gameplay can occur. It's like arguing that professional tennis players should play with one eye because depth perception gives you an unfair advantage. Sure, but only if your idea of fun is playing the game totally handicapped. If the Uber Map fundamentally changes this aspect of play for the better, then players should learn to use it or play better with out it. No matter how much information we give players, there will always be an attention cap in a game with 360 degrees + n number of planets confrontation. Honestly I can only see how this mod would make gameplay more exciting and less stale.

Mods like auto-factory, and Free Energy shouldn't be allowed. Any mod which automates actions basically.

Because that is what can differentiate a good player from a bad one. Someone just leaving their factories doing nothing with great econ? They should have to learn to not do that, rather than installing a mod to do it for them.

But, mods that simply give the user access to more information at once like UberMap, represent it differently, or reduce the amount of keystrokes like Hotbuild2, I don't see an issue with. Frankly, some of those are things that should be in the base game. I mostly use Uber map as I do most RTS maps, for jumping around camera positions, like I did the planet list before it.

If the unit ghosts weren't in the UberMap, would you still consider it a problem? Because it is otherwise just a better performing alternative to using multiple PiP windows. It's just a view projection. Fighting camera controls is not part of the game.

Free Energy takes advantage of abuse-able mechanics relating to energy consumption. For that reason I won't defend it, but I will say that changes to the base game could (and should) make it obsolete.

Auto Factory is nearly useless as far as I can tell. I don't think idle factories are a common problem for experienced players. Maybe it could be a useful option in the base game, especially for newer players, but I don't really think it's important.

Also, since I've seen people mention it from time to time, as far as I know automation of unit movement is not possible (and should never be possible) in a client side mod.

I think we can all agree that PA should have an in-game system like PAMM. Maybe it isn't high priority enough, but it ought to be in there at some point.

Just saying, so far this discussion has a lot of merits on both sides. Lets keep cool people and focus on the issues being raised. This is an important discussion for the future of the competitive scene here and I think it's good to hear out all sides of the issue. We can all agree to disagree without getting flamey.

edit:

This kind of stuff isn't helping. We can disagree about this issue without flaming.

There are possible legal issues that could arise from integrating pamm into pa, which is why uber haven't done so.

It's not vague. It's very specific. It's quantifiable. This isn't a hunch. I can prove it with MATH. What else do you want, eh?

The unit ghosts are just one issue with the Ubermap. The bigger one is the god-tier presence you receive from it's base feature: Seeing the entire map at the same time.

I can see this argument. There is clearly a consensus here about automation mods crossing a line. I get that, and it speaks to what we view the core gameplay being about. Managing economy and builds, etc, is something we want to be fought for not automated. It would also be fine the otherway, but a different game. So I think we should focus on that. The case for banning UI mods seems pretty weak in my opinion. I can't even play PA without hotbuild because the vanilla UI is just crap. PA is basically the first RTS not to have a proper projection map, and it's not a good thing.

I choose my words carefully.
But yeah, Uber will probably have to make their own mod manager / hub.

I know - I love hotbuild and can't live without it. That's not what we're saying. Just call out specific mods that met the criteria and you'll be fine. Hotbuild doesn't meet the criteria (for example) because you can do essentially the same thing with the game's keyboard shortcuts. It's just awkward.

That's not the issue. The problem is if mods are integrated in PA, uber can be viewed as endorsing them. Problem is, what if a modder uses something proprietary that they shouldn't (e.g. TA assets), uber could get sued.

no you can't. you're a funny guy. it's not math. you're saying "oh this guy's energy is never when below zero. can't be a human's doing! Witch! Burn him!"

that's not math.

If Uber did introduce their own mod management. Perhaps it would allow better management over what mods are allowed where, so potentially there wouldn't be an issue over how to find out if someone was using mods when they weren't meant to. Y'know, in lobby blacklisting or something, based on categories that the mod falls into.

Having a system like there is now for PAMM, where things have to essentially be greenlit onto it might work.

Sorry for derail but I just realized your Avatar is bacon jam. They sell that stuff here in the UK (same brand I think) and I freaking love it. You can spread it on a burger and it's just instant delicious.

In that case I have to disagree with you. You can have as many PiP windows as you want showing as much of the planet's surface as you want, and the only factor determining this is performance.
UberMap is just a useful projection of the map, and I believe that is perfectly fair.

You can view the entire surface of the planet with the default PiP system. It's just awkward (and bad for performance).

They shouldn't get sued any more easily than steam for hosting mod workshops.

I'm not sure about this (someone who plays 1v1s, back me up here), but last I checked, EVERYONE drops below 100% efficiency in most of their games at least once.

Remember uber also avoided global chat due to costs of moderation. They don't want the added responsibility. Far easier let the community mange this themselves. Why stifle creativity?