Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

Well, clearly he should have positioned better.

I play since early beta, played many hours, killed and died about 2000 times each. I will not get substantially better. I may improve here and there, but now it's up to having a good day or not.
Sometimes you see people who are that immensly good already (mainly Snipers and Assassins), that it is physically not possible to get better. I mean you if you can kill 50-70 times in a match, you can't do that 500 times, there is no enough seconds for that. The ceiling of the whole game has already been reached by many - this is not the case and never will be in WoW due to constant changes, if I may return the argument. Time passes since my first observation and my opinion stands.

What are you talking about? The skill ceiling, while low, hasn't been reached by anyone yet. I doubt even grimbar or Statement or numerous others would claim to have reached it. Your pub server experience is not relevant to reaching the skill ceiling. It is a decent starting point but with such hugely variable team skill levels is pretty pointless to bring into a discussion on overall game balance, early beta super elite awesome gold premier status or not.

Caliostro, how did you manage to pull out that many numbers and still have absolutely no argument to show for them? I've said this way to many times in this thread, SNIPER IS SAFE, regardless of how many shots it takes to kill someone if you get close to a Sniper he is doing something wrong. He doesn't need to stay close. Not only that but he has tons of tools to get away as well. Setting down traps and flak in the direction the chaser is facing is enough to stop many classes from rushing you down. If a Support comes after you and you are in full awareness of the support, there is no reason for a Sniper to try and fight. He CAN get away, and you shouldn't wait until you are in shotgun range.

Though it is quite impressive that half of your post was dedicated to saying i'm a bad player

I think the ONLY problem with Sniper is how quickly and severely he punishes players for stepping slightly out of position. I think anyone that "knows" how to deal with a Sniper can agree with me that keeping tabs on the Sniper's location, staying out of his line of fire while also dodging/engaging other classes and pushing the lane is as intense as MNC gets, and it's only for dealing with Snipers.

Sniper is unique in the sense that they can affect players from very distant and SAFE locations. This dictates that players MUST keep tabs on Snipers AT ALL TIMES in order to survive against them, no matter their position on the map. Other classes do not share this trait-- you worry about Assassins, Assaults, Supports, Tanks and Gunners when they pose an immediate threat somewhere within your vicinity, but once they're gone they're not still a top priority for players to keep tabs on.

This is not an unbalanced concept in terms of raw gameplay. However, the amount of effort players must put into the game in order to maintain constant awareness of a Sniper's position is higher compared to that of any other class, which is certainly an area of imbalance.

In order to lessen this effect Snipers should not eliminate their targets so easily at the drop of a hat. My suggestion before has been to remove increased damage on headshots and to add a slow/dazed effect upon successful headshots. Again, this maintains the concept of zone control for Snipers while lessening the instant-punishment system they work on now. They would still be effective against Gunners and Tanks because a dazed target is an extremely vulnerable targets. Snipers would still do exceedingly well, but they would be far more team oriented, setting up kills from afar for other classes to swoop in and finish off.

Honestly people that don't think Snipers need to see some tweaks are smoking a considerable amount crack. Do I think Snipers are "OMFG OVERPOWERED SHOULDNT EVEN BE IN THE GAME"? No. Do I think they could use some smart tweaks to make them less of a "HEY I WANT TO THROW MY KEYBOARD AGAINST THE WALL BECAUSE SOME BUCKET OF COCK KEEPS SHOOTING ME ONCE AND KILLING ME FROM HIS SPAWN" kind of class? ****ing absolutely.

I mean, I think headshots are just ridiculous for the kind of game MNC is. You can zone control with a full auto Sniper rifle without instant kill headshots simply by bodyshotting the **** out of someone and leaving them wounded for an Assassin facegrapple or explosion AoE damage or a whole multitude of things from any other class in the game to finish. Simply bodyshotting someone and then having a member of your team approach your target will force them to back away, ie getting zoned. Headshots are just unnecessary, included only because "well they're in every other game." Terrible reasoning for how blatantly unique of a game MNC is.

The idea to add stun to headshots and take away headshot damage is excellent bordering on perfect.

Makes further shots easier but still requires precision to hit people.

And adds a feeling of "battle"
And no hit to bot fragging ability.

What more do you want.

That would actually be pretty interesting.
I assume we're talking the Gunner's Slam stun, right?

I dunno, I think I would prefer to be able to kill players tbh. It takes something like 5 body shots to kill a Gold Armour Tank.

I don't see why not.

I mean if snipers reaaally want to frag people they still have an insane ability to gain juice, from their spawn...

What more do they want? oh a one shot kill anywhere on the map against pros as well.
Pfft.

I like the idea but I don't think Uber will go for it sadly.

Also Snipers would complain about having their precious K/D tarnished :cry:

Well, I personally look forward to what will be said from the "pro snipers" about it, since it has absolutely zero impact on bot fragging.

"But I won't be able to be aggressive."

1. That's a nice picture you're trying to push of yourself, but I think we all know when you cbfed, you're in spawn and it changes practically nothing.

and 2. Pfft, if all you can do is click face for a quick 1sk with all the tools the sniper has at his disposal I would say you're bloody terrible, add in a stun with a head shot and I believe that would be a tide turner anyway, just not an INSTANT WIN button.

That would basically be you complaining about something every other class has to do, which is work for a frag.

"We're the anti tank and anti gunner class"

Yea, and you still would be, making them even slower than they are now, what a death sentence.

You could give the Sniper back some clip size, you could even make it a knock down and stun and it would be better than it is now.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YShX0lLOqkI/TGlpk8_-oxI/AAAAAAAABEM/lBBVFBgjbeI/s1600/mnc1.jpg

Can I bring this map to anyone's attention. I forgot the name of it, but this map is the epitome of unbalance. The sniper can hit you straight across the map, And the only cover is back near your spawn. So please, tell me why I as the player, should waste my charge to get from small cover to other small cover when I could use it against a class who actually has to get close to me to attack, when in reality the closer I get to you, the more of the enemy there is, leaving me without an ability that helps me crowd control them. Are you saying I should stay in my base? Because there is no way to get rid of those snipers on this map.

EDIT: Picture broke the page, fixed it.

GrenadeIII is definitely not one of my favorites simply because I think it favors Assaults and Snipers over any other map. Steel Peel is my most hated map though and that seems to be the general opinion as well.

Yeah because assaults totally can't bomb-jump to shred you to pieces, because assassins cannot smokebomb from the perch to control you. Because you can snipe "every" possible spot there is.

Truth be told this map favours mobile classes but it's far from imbalanced.

I think that reducing the headshot damage, but don't actually REMOVE its bonus and add daze. You do that and sniper will have an extremely hard time dealing with gunners and especially tanks.

Make headshots do 3x damage rather than 10x damage. That means headshot will do around 500dmg, enough that you can 1hit most classes that don't have gold armor and 2shots would kill any class that isn't overhealed.

Also add a bonus of $25 for hitting a headshot, but remove the headshot kill bonus. So even if you don't kill a tank/gunner with one hit you are rewarded for the effort.

Current headshot modifier is 5 not 10, no idea where you get those numbers from.

That Assault has to bomb jump towards you every time you respawn? Effectively taking him out of the game.

If you are on one side and the sniper is on the other side, what do? Bomb jump + jets + dash might reach other side but you'll be at half health and skillless and sniper could either pick you off in mid air, or simply flak at your landing spot.

Once again the effort to counter a sniper far exceeds the effort the sniper puts in to counter you. "have a better sniper" isn't a true fix either. Just because everyone can do something doesn't make it balanced, that's not how game mechanic balancing works, that is why Magic the Gathering has a banned/restricted card list, sometimes even if everyone can do something it still is upsetting the game as a whole.

Yeah and the Sniper, reduction of terms. A game of it's own - welcome to coordination. If you keep a Sniper in check like that your team will love you and you'll become a better player.

You are right, but I notice I also made another mistake which you intentionally ignored as it makes your stance look worse. Thanks for taking the bait.

Headshot is 5x, but zoomed shots are also a minimum of 225, a 3x dmg boost would be around 675 rather than 1125

Just wanted to say, i've become a better player then .

That is all. Wiped 3 snipers up. As gunner.

Hint: On Grenade, Mortar from the middle spawn door of your spawn, Just above the glass while jumping a little bit, and you can hit the enemy perch. Do that all game, enemy snipers really appreciate it.

Hint: On Spunky, Mortar the back wall by shooting over the front wall from your moneyball ring (the opening of your moneyball ring on the top-left side). Enemy snipers love having to dodge stuff while shooting.

I still think the sniper is getting nerfed, I simply wanted to post this somewhere, and here looks good. I mopped up 1 very decent sniper and 2 reg snipers with gunner. Try it until the sniper gets nerfed. Not an arguement, just a tip.