Switch to PC benefits three classes to detriment of others

Raconteur02, how do you expect this sort of discussion to ever be productive without any amount proof put on the table? We've seen players offer countless anecdotes of high level Snipers mopping up pubs with ease, but we've never seen actual VoD's or crucial demos that illustrate how the player in question reacts to the Sniper's presence, or how their team is performing. Zero claims made thus far have had any level of compelling evidence attached. The fact that it's easier to score a headshot, or train bodyshots, or maneuver and aim in general means nothing when the primary "counter" to playing against a Sniper is to simply stay out of his line of fire. All of the precision in the world means nothing if you can't hit your target hiding around a corner who is still keeping the lane pushed.

In my opinion people greatly underestimate good positioning, or simply don't understand it. Good positioning means absolutely everything in DotA and is one of the most crucial elements of being a successful player. Many of these "crucial elements" (like good positioning) have been obscured by the FPS platform MNC resides on, but they are still very much alive and just as important in MNC as they were in DotA. The Sniper alone is proof of this concept. By appropriately positioning himself, he can zone a significant portion of the map. People seem to think this is unfair, that every Pro should somehow have an "equal slice of the zone pie" so to speak -- control the same percentage of the map -- but that's simply not true. Sniper's maintaining control over a significant portion of the map is not unbalanced as it does not make pushing the lane impossible for the enemy team.

Every Sniper that I've encountered that "dominates" pubs is typically feeding off of new/stubborn players that don't understand concepts of positioning or zone control. Typical FPS players seem to think that the only real boundaries are those limited by physical objects or impassable gaps, like walls or stadium edges, and fail to acknowledge the importance of looking for "kill zone boundaries" if you will -- boundaries created by enemy classes due to their raw lethality. ANY DotA/HoN/LoL player can attest to these boundaries, "getting too close to X class allows them to use Y ability that locks me in place for Z seconds and then I die, therefore I don't get that close to X class." From what I've seen, this mentality is entirely absent from MNC's pub scene, and surprise surprise, the one class that benefits the most from this mentality's absence -- the Sniper -- is the most complained about. I wonder why?

Just as any new player to DotA, people will simply have to learn this all too important concept of positioning by trial and error.

I wholeheartedly agree to this statement and more people should be like him.

You missed a very important aspect.

You cannot push a lane against a sniper while avoiding his fire.. because he can kill bots faster than any class other than assassin.. and can do so from infinate range.. and his ROT allows him to do this quickly, while still supressing the lane.. he can snap to bots dismantle them in 3 shots, and continue zoning.

now you can stop his bots from pushing, but you cannot push bots against him..

other than that you have valid points about positioning.. but you could apply that to any class regardless of how op they were.

"just dont be in their line of site, and they are balanced, even if they fire a mini gun that deals 1000 dmg per bullet and has no fall off, just stay out of site..

so lets give gunner a 1000 dmg a bullet mini gun, because its all good, you can just not be where he can see you.. hes totaly balanced..

I know that is an exageration, but its not so far off of the truth that comes off as rediculous, and that should tell you something..


any class that can dispatch bots as fast as sniper and assassin should not ALSO have instant kill abilities, but they do.. and we deal with it, but after the move to PC, those instatant kill abilities became far easier to use.. so while we also have an easier time firing our AR's and Miniguns, none of those are instant kills, nor do they allow for infinate range, or attacks from cloak..

this is the heart of the problem, the two best bot killers, benefited greatly from mouse and keyboard controls, and both have instant kill abilities..

i'm done arguing OP/UP because its pointless, you arent going to change my mind, i'm not gonna change yours.. but i'll present my arguments to the community, take my lickings by the so called "pro players" for being a noob, and hope that uber takes a look at these things..

i dont feel sniper and sin are alone.. i think assault bomb might need a small nerf as its much easier to place with accuracy now (headcrabs and ringout placement).

I think Gunner/Tank/support stayed about the same through the transition, and all 3 feel a little underpowered compared to sniper/assault/sin.

I'm not saying there arent amazing gunners/tanks/supports out there, there are. but on average I think snipers/assasults/sins fair better, due to their advantages.. advantages they had mostly due to a restricted control scheme..

ok enough said.. lets be friends

See, this post perfectly illustrates what is wrong with threads and debates of this sort.

Go back and take a look at the two posts that we both made. Take special notice of how I'm specifically discussing the traits and abilities of the sniper in this game in comparison to industry standards in handling the class on the PC platform. Take special note of how I've provided evidence in the form of sniper mains admitting to only performing well at the class in this game, and in the form of well-known and well-substantiated differences in the control scheme.

Also take notice how I have specifically pointed out how certain differences between this and other games which feature snipers enhance their ability to apply their craft without the normal concerns that the class must contend to in other games. Take notice of how I specifically demonstrated that snipers have abilities in the PC version that they do not in the XBox version which has not been sufficiently accounted for at moderately high skill levels. I cannot do anything about it if you choose to ignore all that evidence and claim that I have none.

We all know that "Post vids or it didn't happen" is a copout to avoid having to actually address the real issues that are brought up by other players. We all know that there is literally no video I can post which would convince you that snipers are in need of a balance fix. You would move the goalposts for literally months, and it would only end when one of us gave up.

You claim to want evidence, but you've done nothing to seek it out yourself. Go watch a few videos of people playing sniper on Xbox. It's really easy to see how jerky, clumsy and ineffective their aiming is. Merely lowering the clip size is not a sufficient counterbalance for the removal of such a fundamental and crippling handicap. Suggesting that there is no evidence for this after it has already been explained is simply reciting the old "L2P" talking point.

In response to me detailing some rather (if I do say so myself) well-constructed arguments, you've offered meaningless platitudes that everyone knows ("positioning", gee, thanks Sun Tzu), baselessly questioned my ability as a player, and tacitly admitted that the sniper can only be avoided and not engaged directly. "From my base entrance all the way up to point blank range" is not an acceptable kill zone boundary, and I think we both know that. But since you're justifying, you suggest that I don't stand in the line of fire of a OHK class as if this was somehow a revelatory experience for me. What are you going to suggest next, General Patton? That I not keep my back turned to Assassins?

In short, I didn't ask you for a strategy tutorial, sir, and I would highly appreciate if you wouldn't presume that I need one.

Examples of talking about the player and not the class:

"people greatly underestimate good positioning, or simply don't understand it."

"new/stubborn players that don't understand concepts of positioning or zone control"

"Typical FPS players seem to think"

Etc. etc.

It's an ad hominem. You may be dressing it up as trying to help, but you presume much when you assume that this is the necessary band-aid.

The fact here is that the sniper was designed for a platform in which he flat out could not aim effectively. Another fact here is that if the sniper still had a 10 bullet clip, and the suggestions we were offering were to reduce that to 4 bullets, we would be seeing copious and passionate arguments that doing so is completely unnecessary because 10 bullets is totally balanced.

Scathis has said himself that the PC version of MNC has to be balanced separately from the XBox version. The combination of OHK headshots, high-damage bodyshots, semi-automatic fire, no scope-shake, no quickscope delay, AOE explosive bullets (!!!), penetrative shots, fast reloads, close range AOE/area denial, immobilization traps, a OHK grapple, and a decent SMG, all being delivered from a base filled with hacked up Rock-Its into maps that only have a 2-3 robot lanes appears to be perfectly balanced on that platform. Why? Because they cannot aim and the class is inherently crippled without that ability unless significant additions are made so that it can defend itself without being able to.

But we all know what even moderately skilled snipers can do on kb/m. Videos for it are readily available, and the control mechanisms to prevent it from becoming a balance issue as it has in other games in the past are well-known. (Other games, by the way, in which you appear to believe that positioning and zone control do not play a role, nor the ability to still contribute offensively while staying out of line of fire.) It is also a fact that these control mechanisms were not included in Monday Night Combat. This cannot be denied, and the expectation that "positioning" will keep the exact same problems from occurring is a ridiculous argument on its face. The fact that you deny the existence of all this is not my problem, and I am not going to try and snap you out of it - especially considering the condescending tone you've taken on.

It would be an interesting experiment to start a thread where those players who feel that snipers are presenting a problem could provide their performance against each class. If these players are statistically being thwarted by snipers more than other classes, then it would be solid evidence that it is the class and not the player that is the problem. However, I would need to see agreement from a majority of the sniper mains who defend the class that this would be an acceptable way to settle the debate before I took on such a project.

You forget that the question here is not "Do snipers need to be nerfed?" The question here is "Have snipers been nerfed enough?" A four bullet clip on a short reload speed in the safety of your own base is a trivial burden, and still very, very generous even in the context of games where snipers don't get the strong array of abilities they get in MNC to make up for their now non-existent handicap in aiming. It's the elephant in the room that simply hasn't been addressed, and lecturing me about basic gameplay strategy quite simply does not change that.

I mean, have you folks ever looked at some of the discussion about the class that occurs on the Xbox?

"Snipers are really cliche classes, as not only do sniper shots have trouble finding constantly moving enemies, but even if you hit them, its not a one-hit kill."

"use the tf2 trick keep your crosshair at there head level and strafe back in forth into there heads instead of just trying to follow the body."

"Stop playing them as an actual sniper" (Is there anything which could possibly demonstrate better how different a beast the sniper becomes with a kb/m?!)

"I find swipe shots to work better on moving targets. If you've ever played something where you have to press/release a button in small window, then it's somewhat easier. Kinda like Fable 2 when doing the actions. Just think of the movement of your reticule to be the white dot and the green area to be your target." (Translation: You cannot track a moving target with a controller.)

"As the thumbsticks are so sensitive for aiming the sniper for that last little adjustment into the target you can keep the cursor where it is and strafe into the shot. (most of my sniper on sniper kills are with this method)"

Emphasis mine. Long time PC FPS players should easily understand the sheer ludicrousness of these things being true and/or necessary.

Or just take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1RL0Ah5B2I

This is a highlight video. And it takes this guy two full seconds to aim a headshot on a deployed gunner. He consistently misses headshots on non-moving targets. Look at how long it takes him to line up a headshot on a scoped sniper at 3:36. This performance is pathetic, and it's because he's using a controller. But it's considered worthy of a gameplay video on this platform. It's even been selectively edited to look good.

I could go on. Snipers on the Xbox knew that their ability to aim was crippled, and they did their best to work around it. Leaving them with all the same tools and only imposing a second or so delay every 4-7 shots doesn't make up for the removal of so incredible a handicap as the inability for a sniper to aim their primary weapon.

I have brought up nearly all of those points before. The truth is, that this is an impossible argument to present the community. Because regardless of the facts, it is still subjective. We can argue that the introduction of mouse and keyboard has enabled the sniper to be both amazing with the rfile, and still allowed to fall back on the many skills he had to defend himself before the control switch. We can argue that his rate of fire and clipsize is still far to high, considering his potential for a OHK.

However, no matter how well thought out and presented your points are, they will still be read as an attack on the players skill. For instance, I pay assault mostly, if someone were to say that assault takes no skill, and is OP, I would feel attacked. Even if part of me knew that the class was OP, I would still not be willing to admit it, and all of my comments would come from a defensive posture. And to an extent I agree with them, its not fair to imply that all snipers are easy mode, I have encoutered a few that land single shot head shots with ease.. those snipers however would not be effected by any changes to the sniper, since they are able to do what they do without all the benefits of ROF/Clipsize/bodyshot spam.. and they deserve to do well, they are truly skilled.

However I have also been killed by snipers who stand behind a see through wall, line up a shot while (totaly safe behind cover) step out fire, step in, step out fire, step in, step out fire, step in, step out fire, step in.. 7 freaking times in 3 seconds.. until one finally lands.. thats rediculous. And I think what most of us are complaining about..


I have serious issue with the ability to move and fire with no scope jiggle + see through cover, Fast rate of fire, and huge clip size... that makes for some rediculus scenes where a sniper is doing what I described above.. And all from inside a relatively safe zone like his spawn... and hes also able to dispatch entire waves of bots in 3 shots in 2 seconds.. and gain huge amounts of juice and cash for doing so... which I dont mind, but it just shows how powerful he is.

he has Bot killing ability, pro killing ability both from cover, quickly and from a range that only a sniper can reach ( or a mortar ) and he also has huge defensive abilities even if you do manage to close the gap, which is difficult to do, since hes watching you come at him from behind his see through cover, and making pop shots the entire time you try and approach..

So after all that you flank him, only to have to navigate 3 freeze traps, get through a lvl 3 flak, and avoid the OHK Grapple.. while hes either spamming SMG or WORSE if hes good, hes making quick scopes..

Enough is Enough though.. I get too heated about this.

I understand. If it helps, it's really a very easy discussion.

Snipers got a straight DPS buff to all targets in the conversion from Xbox to PC, because the control scheme allows them to land more shots more accurately in less time.

On its own, reducing their clip size from 10 to 4 does not counteract that buff.

It's fairly easy, really.

I have a couple of indirect complaints about the sniper..

1. There aren't enough weapons that can be used to fight back against the sniper from medium range.

Support:

• Only short-range weapons

Assault:

• AR: Pathetic damage at medium range due to the sniper's stick-figure hitbox. Aiming down sights just invites headshots
• Grenade launcher: Great at very-long range if you can get to the right position, but useless at medium range when the sniper has the high ground.

Tank:

• Jetgun: short range only
• Railgun: Enough to annoy the sniper but rarely able to kill him before he kills you. The slight spread combined with the sniper's stick-figure hitbox makes it too inconsistent

Gunner:

• Minigun: lol headshot
• Mortar: One of the best anti-sniper weapons, except it's in the hands of the sniper's #1 target. Not very good if the sniper has high ground or uses cover.

Assassin:

• Sword/dagger: Melee range only
• Shurikens: At medium range you're unlikely to hit with even half a clip, again due to the sniper's tiny hitbox. Annoying to the sniper, but rarely lethal unless he's standing in a corner

2. Some of the maps are way too sniper-friendly. In TF2 for example (except for 2fort), most offensive sniping positions are very danagerous for the sniper, and he only has relatively safe nests on defense. In MNC, there are too many places where the sniper can reach all the way to the enemy base from safe positions.

- Spunky Arena
It may seem counter-intuitive, but due to the lack of mid-range threats as mentioned above, the forward section of the ejector walkway is an incredibly powerful spot for snipers. Ice traps easily cover front and back. It offers high ground combined with glass wall cover. Long-range bombardment from grenades and mortars is almost entirely neutralized by the bridge and the center wall. It's perfect for throwing flak right into the middle of the bot clash. A good sniper here is absurdly difficult to take down, can rack up tons of bot kills, and can effectively prevent any attempt at offense by the other team. You can't cross to the enemy side of the field without going through his kill zone.

- Grenade III Arena
This is probably the worst map, as far as sniper dominance. There are no less than 3 sniper nests here that have views of >50% of the map. "Stay out of his sight" just isn't an option at all unless you're turtling.
The balcony attached to the base can see just about everything, and is easy to protect with freeze traps (and the fact that most people have to go through the enemy base to get there). It is a good target for grenades and mortars, but pretty much only from your own base, which just means that after the sniper kills you, you can respawn and hope for some revenge.
The two lane bridges at the center of the map are even worse. They can view just as much of the map, and are much harder to attack. They offer high ground, glass cover, and easy freeze trap protection, including automatic-death freeze traps if anyone tries to use jump pads to reach him. From there he can pressure the enemy all the way back to their base, snipe the opposite lane, and control the center area.

- LaseRazer
No complaints here. There are enough walls to prevent a sniper from owning too much of the map, and usually plenty of alternate routes to reach them.

- Steel Peel
Thanks to the new glass walls it's not the "tape down the trigger" affair that it used to be. Snipers sitting in their base are relatively tame, but the upper bridges just outside the base are a bit too powerful under the feet of a good sniper. Once again, they offer a perfect combination of high ground, glass cover, simple freeze trap placement, and a view of most of the battlefield.

- Ammo Mule
Those bridges again offer a powerful combination of factors in the sniper's favor. Not as bad as Grenade III or Spunky though.


When you look at the qualities that make a good sniper nest:

• High ground
• Glass cover
• Narrow walkways and/or jump pad landings for freeze traps
• View of most or all possible enemy routes

IMO there shouldn't be any spots that offer all of these benefits, but there are several.


edit: I do feel kind of silly for basically writing a sniper strategy guide here.

I mean, I hate to harp on the point, but all this becomes a non-issue when the sniper cannot aim.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything about this game has been designed with the presence of a sniper class that cannot aim in mind. It's a fundamental design flaw that cannot be fixed with a clip size band-aid.

especially since after RoF and armor, what endorsements do they really need?


they usually get clipsize..

Right - and if you kill someone off of 4-5 bodyshots delivered in less than three seconds while you're standing between a hacked Rock-It and three freeze traps in your own base, you didn't just outplay that kill. You got carried by your class.

I know good snipers. I've played against good snipers. When someone snaps off a one-hit headshot from across the arena while I'm bouncing around like a hyperactive jackrabbit, I mentally congratulate them on their ability while I'm waiting to respawn because they damn well earned it. But that isn't what we're talking about, and everyone knows it.

Scathis once said that he knows MNC is balanced if there if debate about it. What he failed to realize is that there is a subset of users that will defend any state of affairs that can be reasonably imaginable simply because it is in their own self-interest to do so, so the presence of debate cannot be construed to mean that something is, in fact, adequately tuned.

With that said, screw you guys - I'm gonna go play Just Cause 2.

Very good post zarakon, that's exactly my point of view as well. There really is no anti-Sniper weapon in the game that works well enough for medium range and the grenade launcher is no reliable way to connect with his small hitbox.

and if the sniper is running armor the grenade launcher is basically useless as he will just run back deeper into his base, on console the sniper was a pain but he wasn't something you had constantly beware of unless you were playing a gunner or something but he was a lot easier to deal with since his accuracy wasn't as great as it is on pc.

yes i know some console players have incredible accuracy but it is a lot easier with a mouse to get headshots.

Zarakon made a really good point, and I said quite the same thing in another thread: the problem may rely in the design of some maps (for me, it's mainly Ammomule and Grenade).

As an example, yesterday I played as an Assault on Ammomule vs two good snipers (Uncle and another Sniper 90+) and I couldn't even move out of my base.

Blame it on the lack of walls :roll:

They added more walls already. In an xbox patch. Before Steam.

Am I the only one that finds snipers easy to kill, really?

Those arguements are based on the assumption that such a sniper exists that can always headshot in .5 seconds across the map, headshot near-instantly and consistently.

The mortar is most overpowered, it can hit anyone on the map who isn't under cover, even outside of sight. If someone could use it like they were an aiming program, it would be better than the sniper rifle. Take out turrets, bot lanes, light classes... and never have to see them directly, could do it all from behind cover, not partially covered but completely.

Point is, play correctly and you usually find that the sniper gets a headshot every 25 shots, and he has a 4 round clip. I played sniper, and it's current clip size makes him barely able to clear bots. Reduce his rate of fire, and he will no longer be able to push bots, destroy turrets, and kill pros except if they use an aimbot. The class wouldn't be playable by 99% of players (who still wouldn't be able to do anything with the class but stroke their k/d), nothing would really counter gunner-support groups. Every game becomes gunner-support.

So, since your thinking of ways to fix the sniper, if you think clip reduction will work then lets get started on the next problem: how do we balance gunner-support teams?

How about the sniper gets to fire as many shots a minute as he currently does, and you mess with the aiming mechanics a little bit, WITHOUT messing with rate?

Obviously a reduced RoF or bolt-action change would have to be accompanied by a damage increase against bots


As much as I hate snipers on a deep conceptual level, I think messing with their aim with some kind of drifting/shaking would be wrong. It's their insane RoF that takes away from the idea that they should be about precision, and gives them the ability to either spam bodyshots or spray and pray for headshots. It's less "BOOM HEADSHOT" and more "plink, plink, plink, dead"

Seriously, dude, if you're even remotely capable of being successful as a sniper while believing that this sort of ridiculousness is "playing one correctly", it's proof positive that the class is completely unbalanced. A sniper that can only land one headshot in twenty-five attempts deserves to be walked all over every time they leave their spawn, because they suck and have no business playing that class.

I'm sure Sniper could see some tweaks. I'm not sure what exactly, but they're the #1 most complained about class, and even if I disagree vehemently there is still some merit to an entire board constantly being submerged in Sniper complaints. Are people overreacting? Most certainly, but is there a credible and valid concern amongst it all? Very probable, though I'm happy to see Uber approaching it all with a very visible element of skepticism.

As mainly an Assault player I don't have many issues with Snipers. My charge gives me the mobility I need to leapfrog from cover to cover (or to dispatch an unarmored Sniper in one level 2 charge), my bomb gives me the indirect damage solution to uproot a Sniper while staying out of his line of sight, and my jump jets allow me to avoid traps and take unnatural routes to catch Snipers by surprise.

If I were to make any suggestion to changing Sniper for the PC in terms of acknowledging the fact that aiming is easier on the PC platform then I would say to reduce the headshot damage a Sniper can cause. A Sniper's main role is zone control in MNC and they should be balanced around such concepts. Reducing headshot damage (so that it's not OHK) but adding a stun effect (such as the ejector stun effect) upon a successful headshot would still allow Snipers to fiercely zone targets -- and punish those who step too far -- but not so immediately.

Personally I don't like how much damage level 3 grapple does for a class that isn't meant to excel at close quarters combat but I don't typically find myself being successfully grappled by Snipers, or find too many that invest in level 3 grapple before I have a rounded skillset that can easily deal with a Sniper (3 bomb, 2 charge, 2 jets) as most Snipers seem to level their passive and traps more than other skills first. Most level 3 skills are also almost always "over the top" in terms of power, so keeping that in mind the grapple doesn't seem too ridiculous given the Sniper's platform it's been placed on (especially since an Assault grapple 3 would dispatch it with ease, every time).

Scope shake and quickscope nerfs are all viable alternatives but I think they don't fit with the 'arcadey' atmosphere of MNC.

@Ranconteur: Good posts. I don't purposely try to come off as a condescending person but it seems inevitable given the nature of the discussion we're having and the side that I'm taking. I honestly have very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very VERY few problems with Snipers and I've played against various high level Snipers (prestige'd level 80s included, who I dominated) plenty of times that leave games with high KDRs but low cash payouts (no bot kills) and are little more than player killing paperweights on their teams. Obviously our personal experience differs. Any Sniper I've set my sights on to disrupt or eliminate as an Assault player has been disrupted or eliminated 90%+ of the time if I were to take some sort of neither-here-nor-there percentage based guess.

Am I telling most players to pick up a strategy guide or to try and sit back and try different methods rather than run to the forums immediately to post a whine? Absolutely. In my opinion it's quite worthless to gripe about something being OP rather than finding a personal solution to the strategy (ie stay out of their line of sight) unless it is BLATANTLY overpowered (ie ZERO debate). I've had very little trouble staying out of Sniper line of sight, flanking and eliminating them when necessary, and still pushing the bot lane if I choose not to directly engage.

I don't find Snipers amongst my top concerns (my only real concern is juiced assassins eating entire bases alive, but I'm still working with the Shaveices on that and I'll get back to you). In my opinion, yes, people should learn to just stay out of Sniper line of fire as their job is to zone and you must stay out of their zone to survive. It sounds ridiculous on paper but in practice you realize that it makes a ton of sense and actually works-- yes, it is possible to push the lanes from cover, yes, it is easy to muscle over twiggy Snipers as a class meant to engage in close quarters combat.

Thanks, and don't sweat it. I've been known to get heated up on a balance discussion before, so I'm not in a position to be too critical.

I'll give you an anecdote here - as I type this, my best friend is playing MNC on my account. He is fairly past failsin status at this point, knowing to push bot lanes and juice out turrets and such, but there are still many who would be shocked to see such a performance on a near level 70 player.

He totally just dominated the pub he was in as I was writing this, but my point remains. If their cash layouts are that low then they would have extreme difficulty getting to high level maining sniper, and even I can walk away from a game with a positive KDR using the class, so I expect the existence of some anomalously bad high level snipers that are still getting pro kills. But it is possible, though, I'll give it that.

I hope you won't take it personally if I say that self-reporting of this regard is notoriously unreliable. It's kind of like asking fishermen what size fish they catch on average. If Uber has any idea what they're doing (and considering how rad MNC is, I think they do) then they're keeping stats. If snipers are generally making more money (or have more high-income outliers) than other classes, then they'll know that. I think the most this discussion is going to do is motivate them to look at certain numbers.

These options aren't mutually exclusive, though. Most people bitch on the forums when they're at work and can't play MNC. I'll be dropping this like a hot potato as soon as my turn comes up, believe me.

(Edit: And did! Actually ran across Tinygod who was ironically playing sniper, lolz.)

I would point out again here that I think a class which restricts movement to "out of his line of sight" on pain of instant death is a self-evident issue, but I don't want to harp on it at this point. I'd rather discuss the meta-debate. So what I'll say instead is that there *is* no such thing as blatantly overpowered by this definition. It's unfortunately an unrealistic measure.

Is it possible that I'm on the wrong side of this debate? Yes. It is. But I'm not a nerfherder by nature, although I can see how it may seem that way - I wasn't in on the whole assassin hate upon release, for example, and I've never, ever posted in a balance debate on TF2 after hundreds of hours of play.

You know, those are my second biggest concern. I'm totally with you on that. I actually get happy when they backstab me because it means they aren't juicing off my bots. Properly played assassins are infuriatingly beastly. I <3 them.

I will say that in the meantime ducking out the sniper by switching back and forth from wall-to-wall can buy you some time, if not bailing out to another lane altogether. I main mortar on Gunner, so I'm hopping/jetpacking and generally trying to be as unpredictable as possible all the time. And most snipers are still bodyshotting bads, which helps mitigate the issue at least somewhat. Heh.

I think the important thing here is that if we are going to discuss class balance, that we do it with higher class than the playerbases of some other games I could mention - so cheers.

As is any class, though infuriatingly beastly Support, Gunner, Tank and Assault are making far more visible effort to their prey than a Sniper or an Assassin.

Indeed.

Nothing more to add. We're all friendly here.