Confessions of a Sniper

Good point.

The existence of Sniper does not refrain people from saying that other classes might be OP. Yet, you don't really see that people complain about Tank today ? or Support ? or Assault ? Your description of such a chain reaction is silly... at best, ok ?

Headshots, so repetitive, so independent of what you're doing make many of us such bad players. Bad by the fact that we dare to step into a LoS covering half of the map. So bad, that you might be playing Mario Kart on Nintendo 64 and still be headshot by a Sniper from MNC.

Wait are we being trolled?

All the sniper needs is a slower shooting rate and it's good.

I hate running out of the way to live and sniper shots just keep on coming...bam..bam..bam..bam I'm dead....The rate of the bullets are just too fast for that powerful of a weapon.

Ergo, I predict that, as current all teams EITHER run a sniper or assassin, depending on the scenario... that post-sniper-nerf no team will run a sniper, but all will now run 2 gunner and 2 supports and 1 assassin and 1 heavy/support/assault/assassin

That is what game un-balancing does. Starts with someone complaining a class is overpowered, when it's only useful to have 1 of that class on a team. Then nerf that class that didn't really deserve it. Then a class DOES become so overpowered, that a competitive team is now made of half+ of them.

Making aiming less spammable is one thing that might be ok, not really necessary. MAKING RATE OF FIRE LESS ON THE SNIPER RIFLE WILL MAKE SNIPER USELESS. THIS IS NOT TEAM DEATHMATCH. THE SNIPER MUST PUSH BOTS! So, the only way a single-shot long-reload sniper rifle will work, is if bot headshots did 2x more damage than they do now, and explosive rounds did 3x more damage to bots, 2x more damage to pros, than they do now. Then, snipers might be stronger than they are now anyway. Why not leave them alone?

Hey this should have been a post in an existing topic discussing Snipers instead of a topic on its own.

TF2 sniper has some serious drawbacks when included in a 6v6 game for a mid fight. Last (defense and offense) are a bit more common on the various maps however.

The majority of the time teams run 2 scouts because it was the most effective strategy, because even a decent scout would do some damage vs. a good sniper that may kill 3 guys and may do nothing at all except die in a half second. This is a huge risk when teams approach equivalent skill levels.

Sniper to mid was pretty rare and very map dependent. There were only a few maps that could easily run a mid sniper effectively, Freight and Yukon being the best examples. Freight was a mixup type play and was very vulnerable to a quick scout flank but can work for an early pick but not something you'd do every mid fight. Yukon was quite a bit more common to see mid snipers because the size of the mid area was gigantic leading to sniper advantage given sufficient skill.

Quick scope still exists in TF2, but as has been said 200 ms is not zero. Even with a 200 ms delay on head shots, you need to extremely skilled to ever notice it or have it effect in any way your playstyle. A skill level not many have reached in TF2 and whether or not grimbar has reached this point is unknown to me but is not outside the realm of possibility.

Umm, you started it? If there can be 106947320954 seperate threads, all discussing sniper nerfs and the sniper being overpowered and people ranting and begging for sniper nerfs, then there can be 1 thread about the topic "DON'T nerf it".

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7847
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7443
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8090

We will move this to the thread you wish once you delete 2 of the previous threads.

Oh, I missed one in the Wishlist section. This may seem obscure, but it is a sniper nerf. I found it quite hilarious.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8076

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not many people here had the pleasure of playing the original Counter Strike on it's heyday, right?

I don't know... Maybe this is why i don't feel that snipers are OP at all in MNC, but in my old days we had to deal with something called the AWP, and that was a bitch.

A lovely one though.

i'm on board with what grimbar and brotranq has to say really. i remember when i first started playing MNC and i was consantly whining to myself "OMG THOSE DAMN ASSASSINS BE OP AS HELL SON" (thankfully i've had my fair share of forum rage so i left these thoughts mostly to myself). then i started to read threads about how people dealt with them and i haven't turned back since. Assassin's aren't OP so long as you know how to deal with them, and now they're the most killed class for me. Snipers being OP? everyone thinks that at some point in any game that's got a sniper rifle. sure they can insta-kill a lot of classes with one headshot. so what? stop running in straight lines for once maybe? play a bit more cautiously? admittedly sure, there are times when there's an enemy sniper that just dominates because it's the only class he/she plays and they know how to lock down an area. guess what? near any class can do that so long as they're played well enough and correctly. what can you do? applaud them for their skill and move along, hope for the best, and play the game.

i may not be a vet on this forum, but i can say this much. first it's sniper's and assassin's being screamed for by the masses for a nerf. it happens and then what? assassin and sniper players will be outraged and then other classes will be next. gunner's and tanks for their firepower and sustainability, assaults for their versitility, supports for supporting? Soon everything is going to be called for nerfs, and then the game just goes to hell.

Look. i love this game. nothing's caught my attention on steam since i started playing team fortress 2 like MNC has. i'd hate to see it deteriorate too much. Sure there are times when you just want to smash your keyboard in disgust, but that's true for any game. just give it some time and some lovin' and you'll be rewarded with some good gameplay, and you'll think to yourself, "well shoot, this ain't half bad at all", and be on your merry way, and maybe with a strip of bacon to boot.

~end mini-rant~

Quoted myself and someone else from a PM. Felt it summed up my next post here. Stop making anti-sniper threads, and we won't make pro-sniper threads. They were locked for a reason, and I personally just feel like ending this with what I have already said:

Sniper currently keeps other classes in balance. If it stops doing that due to a nerf, other classes will be buffed and overpowered. That happens, I AM going to start playing those classes. I WILL rub it in your face once you start whine-threading about it. I SHALL get the sniper re-fixed. Hope the devs read this before they consider a sniper nerf, so they keep the game's balance in mind and don't mess up sniper's bot-pushing and counter-heavy strengths.

Hell, at this point, I say just take headshots out of the game, and leave everything else alone. Make headshots only work on bots and deployed enemies without headshield. Balance kept. Spam bodyshots.

Then, lower assault grenade-launcher and bomb-skill moneyball damage by 20%. Make mortars explode after traveling a little past map's distance so they simply explode if shot at too high an angle. Game COMPLETELY BALANCED afterwards.

ALL the ******* time.

Usually when someone good is playing it.

I agree with grimbar on this one, i don't see a problem with the sniper as of now and i main tank . If they do anything then i wouldn't mind them making the sniper zoom out before shooting again.
The counter to a sniper in short is another sniper, even if he/she is not good they still pressure the other sniper to peak out less, so if your problem is a sniper, simply put, get a sniper on your team.
The fraility of the sniper is their biggest biggest weakness i can think of so maybe a good balance would be to lower their health regeneration rate a tad so once hurt they must andhide for a while before they can safley shoot again
This would not break the game and would benefit both parties here because the sniper would shoot less but the good snipers retain their ability to quickscope

Just my unorganized thoughts here

This would limit the Sniper's mobility indirectly - so I'm not up for it.

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Anyway, I'll just address the two main points I see being thrown around:

If you nerf Sniper, Gunner will become overpowered!

I'm not sure where to start with this one - it's a really illogical overreaction that reminds me of when Uber nerfed Assassin's damage to turrets and juice gain.
Assassins cried, and said they were going to quit - but if you look at the game today, they're still the number 1 base killer.

Sure, Sniper counters Gunner - but why would a nerf to Sniper greatly affect Gunner balance?

I have never ever been forced to play Sniper to counter a Gunner - they can easily be matched by an Assault, or other Gunner, and even Tank - in fact any class can take advantage of his low speed and maneuverability.
Think about it, if Gunners would become overpowered due to a Sniper nerf, wouldn't you expect a lot of complaining on these forums from all the other classes (bar Sniper) saying he was too powerful, while Gunners say "Just play Sniper"?

I'm not even going to discuss the prominent opinion that I've seen displayed ingame and on these boards - where people are saying that the Gunner's currently a weak class due to the jet pack nerf, and his poor options vs a good sniper.

Also, how much do you think Uber will nerf the Sniper? So much that he can't even kill a Gunner reliably?
Uber would not be so dumb that their balance change would render Snipers useless against Gunners - after the nerf, Snipers would still counter Gunners. Uber really can't stuff this up that much.

Like, I dunno, are you all joking? Because the "Gunners will become OP" idea is... frankly ridiculous. From so many view points.

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In TF2, Snipers were often used in competitive play - then they got nerfed, and now they're used far less, hence, the nerf was bad
Pretty much the issue with this statement is that it assumes that the Sniper is no longer used in competitive play because he cannot score as fast headshots. It also assumes that during their popular period in the TF2 metagame, they were balanced. (They weren't, hence why the competitive community mostly support the change)

Let me explain.

Okay, so you had the TF2 Sniper who could quickscope.
The Valve devs saw him as an issue because as the players got better, Snipers could not only dominate at long range, but also close and moderate ranges. Ideally, you want your class that has range dominance to be less effective in close quarters for obvious balance reasons (so they don't have a monopoly at all ranges).
So they forced him to wait 200ms after scoping to get a Headshot, which, made him less effective at close ranges (good) but had a secondary effect.
In TF2, Snipers slow down while in scope, so, not only did the Sniper lose some effectiveness at closer ranges, but he got slower.

This, is actually what made the Sniper less viable in competitive play. Not the nerf to his close combat, or shooting speed, but the movement speed nerf.
The Sniper runs at 100% speed (already bad for comp play), with no additional movement abilities (like rocket jumping) - and if he has to scope for 200ms before he can get a headshot, he is bumped down to 27%(?) movepseed for that time. effectively meaning that he cannot move and attack at the same time.
It also makes him far more vulnerable to spam.

Both of these are terrible in competitive play, as it's all fast paced, and spam pressure is really important to set up kills for Scouts.

If you need proof that the Sniper's offenses aren't his issue - consider the fact that he is still used in competitive play. If he couldn't pull out the DPS fast enough, he wouldn't be able to compete for the team slot with the roaming Soldier and second Scout.
Why?
Snipers in TF2 are pretty much only good for killing, they have limited ability to do anything but inflict damage. Scouts and Soldiers though have far more utility, such as being able to deny areas better than a Sniper, guard the Medic, and etc.
Also note the scenarios where teams use a Sniper. They use them either on maps where the majority of the battlefield can be covered by the Sniper without him moving much, and on defence - where, as the team needs to go on the offensive, he's quickly swapped out for the 2nd scout.

So really, what's keeping the Sniper from being used more than he is his low movement speed and vertical maneuverability, and his lack of utility when compared with the Soldier and Scout.
If he
- Had 114% ms,
- Did not slow down when in zoom
You would see him far more.
(Though I very much doubt you could make him standard without overpowering him as the current team layout has amazing synergy)

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So how does this relate to the MNC Sniper?
First off, Uber would never nerf the Sniper to an unplayable state. And even if they did, they could even revert and try again. The whole notion that "Gunners would be OP" is... silly.
Second, what happened to the TF2 Sniper would likely not happen to the MNC Sniper.
The MNC Sniper is faster than the TF2 Sniper, and has much more going for him than just his Sniper Rifle. He has great area denial, juicing ability, etc.

As long as Uber only nerfs what should be nerfed, and leave his movespeed and other competitive qualities alone - he'll be fine.

I think that the following changes should be applied:
- Sniper Rifle must be completely zoomed in to Headshot. (nerfs quickscoping, but still, scope is quite fast in MNC so not such a huge nerf)
- Sniper Rifle's RoF nerfed slightly (and I mean slightly, not more than 0.1-0.2s) (nerfs close combat, as well as giving opponents a better chance to react to a body shot)
- Explosive shot deals more damage to bots, and gets more Juice so that the Sniper's farming is basically unchanged.
- SMG's accuracy increased slightly, drop off over range slightly lowered (allows SMGs to be more effective defensively and more effective when used to follow up mid-range body shots)

Let's go through the checklist...
- Still the best class offensively at range? Check.
- Still able to dodge spam? Check.
- With good conditions, can still pull off reliable close-mid range headshots? Check
- Can still follow up a mid-range bodyshot for a kill? Check.
- Can still juice often? Check.
- Can still set up easy kills? Check.
- Still has great area denial? Check.
- Can still kill bots and turrets well? Check.

Still completely viable, and even better in some respects.

And remember, I main Sniper - so none of this "Omg you're just butthurt" stuff.
Believe me, if Uber were to nerf the Sniper to be too weak, I'd be posting to have him reverted and re-attempted in a heatbeat.

- Sniper Rifle must be completely zoomed in to Headshot. (nerfs quickscoping, but still, scope is quite fast in MNC so not such a huge nerf)

Sure

- Sniper Rifle's RoF nerfed slightly (and I mean slightly, not more than 0.1-0.2s) (nerfs close combat, as well as giving opponents a better chance to react to a body shot)

Absolutely Not. You play him right now, and tell me he can stand a rate nerf and still clear bots before they go from cover to cover

- Explosive shot deals more damage to bots, and gets more Juice so that the Sniper's farming is basically unchanged.

Assassins wouldn't like this one. Hypothetically, if the sniper rifle WAS made bolt-action, it would have to kill blackjacks in 1 headshot, explosive round does damage equal to 50% blackjack health, and explosive rounds would have to do 80% of a unarmored assassin's health (so it would do 50%+ to armored assassins). It would be better just to leave it at 4 shots and everything else alone.

- SMG's accuracy increased slightly, drop off over range slightly lowered (allows SMGs to be more effective defensively and more effective when used to follow up mid-range body shots)

SMGs already beat assault rifles with the right endorsements, No.

Anywho, I hope they do make the sniper virtually removed from the game. Oh the sore butthurt I will unleash with gunner on poor whine-posters. They will quit the game entirely because of me, and then we can just reset the sniper and everyone can be happy again. I will play the gunner like SUCH A KILL-WHORE ***, with taunts and in-game immaturity and your-mama jokes... once people hate me as gunner, back goes the sniper, and boom goes the dynamite.

man you're having a breakdown.. step away take a break and come back ...

PS: if it does more dmg against bots, it wont effect assassins... just bots

Either way, I have been practicing my armor juggernaut gunner, my crit deploy gunner, and my mortaring things that can't fight back. Can't wait for them to make gunner easy.

If his damage is increased as I proposed below, it should be fine. No change.

I'm not saying anything about bolt action. That's not part of my suggestion list. I don't want bolt action, personally.

I'm calculating that with a 0.2 added firing time, we would have to add 30% damage to bots. Correct me if I'm wrong. That said, it all works out mathematically, why is it a problem?
If the Sniper's dps vs. bots is left unchanged, what is the issue?

Also, I wasn't aware that "Increased damage to bots" affected Assassins. Weird. I thought they were under the "Pro" category.

Really?
Care to elaborate?

But... I suppose if you don't want the Sniper to get a little buff to help him make up what he lost in some scenarios, that's fine.

As I said, nerfing Sniper won't lead to Gunner domination as plenty of other classes have fair match ups with Gunners, and the class' low speed is generally exploitable.

I don't even know where you'd get the idea that extremely skilled Snipers are the only things keeping Gunners in check. Pretty illogical.

I think WylieTimes had some good points. I like the idea of slightly less RoF but same bot-killing ability. But then again I'm playing tank and these are known to be a good target for bulletspam . I think if they nerf anything, they should do so in very small steps.

I don't see that the sniper definitely has to be nerfed. I would rather wait so that people can see if they don't learn to manage them quite well in competetive matches.
So basically we should sit and wait and balance if there are still problems.

Surely that is why he was used on about every staple map to mid, not just the open ones. Have you actually ever seen bloodsire or jaehong or other good snipers play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkZLJeQ1Nhc

Nothing imbalanced there, just pure unadulterated skill. This is what the Sniper is to me in MNC right now and quite frankly I like it that way.

Edit: to clarify, the people who welcomed the change were simply not good enough to deal with Snipers from hell.