Switch to PC benefits three classes to detriment of others

Let's just pretend your "I'm going to dismiss this out of hand" posts already happened so I don't have to put up with that condescending bullshit, okay? Now, on with the show.

Switching over to mouse and keyboard gives explosive growth potential to the three classes best situated to take advantage of it. Classes that can fight at a distance, move with precision, and benefit from turning on a dime now have much higher skill ceilings than they did on console.

The end result is that Assault and Assassins' ability to outmaneuver every other class has been amplified many-fold. And sniper's ability to not have to outmaneuver players has done the same. It leaves support and gunner (and to a lesser extent, tank) acting as anchors on the team. Two, arguably three, classes are pretty much obsolete unless you're facing very casual players. Here's a list of problems.

The best bot-clearers (and thus best earners) are also the best pvpers
Assassin can wipe out an entire wave in a single lunge (and sometimes a couple extra slashes if necessary.) Assault can do the same with a bomb. Sniper can do it in two shots. But these are also the best classes at killing players. Tank is good at bot waves if he can get in the mix safely. Support is garbage at it, whether using a hacked firebase or his weapons. Airstrikes work but rely on prediction and take a long time to recharge (and bot waves are frequently killed by teammates before the bomb connects.) Gunner's weapons are all pretty much a joke against any bot stronger than a Scrambler.

As a result, Gunner, Tank, and Support have very narrow niches compared to the do-it-all classes. Gunner is capable of demolishing turrets, but at the cost of pvp strength, survivability, mobility, and bot-clearing ability. Any time I pick these classes (and I do it now and then because I like playing them,) if I win, it's because the other team is terrible. Skilled assaults, snipers, and assassins do damn near everything the bottom three do, but better.

The 'counter' skills are a joke
Having established that the "bottom three" are inferior bot pushers and inferior pvpers, there ought to be something to offset it, right? But that doesn't pan out. Support's skills are mostly underwhelming (except level 3 hack) and take forever to recharge, and the class is totally helpless at range, lacking any real deterrent power, any ability to fight back, or any way to hit at a distance, barring a very lucky long distance ground zero. Gunner slam is easy to hop. It applies somewhat less to Tank who has health and mobility that can get him out of trouble or squash bad assassins. But as long as you don't play like a total idiot, you can demolish a tank by working around his strengths.

The skill ceilings on the bottom 3 classes don't raise as much as the others
When everybody's new and figuring out the game, balance seems pretty solid. But once people figure things out, all the cool tricks, great positioning, and brilliant tactics benefit the classes that can most take advantage of mouse and keyboard. That means gunner and assassin's mobility goes through the roof. Sniper's ability to tag anybody increases a great deal. And the only benefits the other classes get, the ability to track opponents better with weapons, aren't exclusive. Sure a gunner is able to be more precise with the minigun now. But so can every other class.

The only one of the bottom three that benefits to any real degree from mouse and keyboard is the tank, since the railgun is really good if you're accurate, and the 'tank jump' adds a tiny extra bit of mobility out the gates. But it just doesn't compare to what the Big Three get.
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I know we bag on idiot assassins and do-nothing snipers here. Don't let the fact that the cool guy classes attract swarms of terrible players blind you their true potential. If you haven't seen what a truly capable assault, sniper, and assassin can do, you don't have anything to add to this discussion.

Possible solutions
Nerfs: Nobody likes them and it's probably not the best idea.
Buffs: Hard to balance. Support is a joke against any competent assault, assassin or sniper right now, but I can't imagine any way to improve firebases, for example, that wouldn't be infuriating.
Develop niches better: Is there any reason that the three best pvp classes should also be the three best at killing bots and raising money? If gunner chopped down bots better, assassin worse, and if support's bot aura was more pronounced, if tank's product bomb had an area of effect bigger than the tiny impact zone, you might see each class develop a bit more into a preferred niche. That way, teams would have more reason to diversify their classes and you'd see more interplay between how classes cooperate.

Anyone got anything to add? Anything that isn't "all the assassins I play are really bad thus the class is just fine?"

Every class can put bots the support just hast to use his firebase. Tank and assassin are the 2 best bot pushers. Assaults and gunners are pro killers. The sniper is used for both killing and bot pushing he is the assistant.

Firebase is slower to kill bots than every single class but gunner. It clips through Slims, but everyone can do that. Blackjacks take a long time of just standing there.

Assassin is also the best money-maker and among the best pro killers.

Assault bomb wipes out bots as fast as anything else. If you think the class is strictly a pro-killer, you're playing against bad assaults. That bomb practically prints money. And gunners are good at literally nothing but killing turrets. Yes I have played against good gunners. They are consistently torn apart by good snipers, assaults, assassins, and sometimes tanks. If a gunner is performing well it is because his opponents are bad.

And the fact that he's better at killing bots than three/possibly four classes and better at killing pros than at least four is out of whack.

Read the post again. Every benefit that the Bottom Three classes get is something the Big Three get as well, only the Big Three get to leverage that advantage even more.

What it translates to is the best bot killers are also the best pro killers. Have you ever played a game where you thought "man, I really wish we had a Gunner right now?" There are team problems that can be solved with a good assault, sniper, assassin, or sometimes tank. The only thing Support has to offer right now is hacking turrets and spawning gapshots. Gunner can do nothing that other classes can't do better (killing bots and players, controlling key map areas, pressing the moneyball) or almost as well (killing turrets.) Tank is pretty good at bots but can be easily thwarted in pvp, is weak against turrets, and lacks mobility to control the map as well as the Big Three.

I don't agree with this. Once you know what you're doing even good assassins have very low anti-pro ability.

You talk about support as if he's meant to front line fight like everyone else. He isn't. He is not going to have the stopping power to take out anyone except at close range. Gunner isn't made for bot pushing, he specializes in pro killing and area denial, which he does well if played properly. Tank is still incredibly good provided he's not locked down by a sniper. Assault is meant to be a jack of all trades, but he isn't all that great at pushing bots, and against any half decent gunner he'll have trouble. As for assassin.... let's point out that pretty much everyone kills more assassins than any other class. They are not so great at the whole assassinating thing as everyone seems to think.

The only change I could see happening is removing the sniper's explosive rounds triggering on friendly targets. It would make hitting your opponent more dependant on actually hitting your opponent. I say this from a couple rounds as sniper yesterday, being able to kill assassins out of grapples by shooting the person they were facestabbing.

Also you might note that with the recent change the tank is going to be making a **** ton of money clearing bots, due to bot streaks being pretty much inevitable with all that health.

Also saying supports are only good for hacking turrets and spawning gapshots gives me the idea you don't understand the class role he's meant to fill. Supporting his teammates, namely. The support is best at creating a frontal base to return to, keeping his teammates topped up, and utterly devastating the moneyball and turrets when he has juice. Hacking turrets is always going to be a thing that is done, but if your team has any kind of map control it will be less important than keeping everyone alive.

Yep. When it comes down to Pro v Pro, the Assassin is the one class I fear the least.

And that lack of stopping power (or alternately some mobility, an escape, or some kind of actual deterrent power) makes him inferior at literally everything and renders his entire niche to hacking turrets and spawning gapshots.

And the best pro-killers and area denial classes kill pros AND bots better than he does.

You are playing against terrible assaults. If the assault isn't keeping you under constant threat of ringout with bombs, harassing you beyond your effective range, and tearing you apart if you try to get close, you're not playing an assault near the skill ceiling, which is what this thread is about.

I posted multiple times that the fact that lots of terrible people play assassin doesn't mean the class isn't incredibly good. Lots of idiots play assassin. Nobody denies that. But someone who plays assassin near the skill ceiling kills bots better than arguably every other class, raises money faster than anyone, and gets one-hit kills. The fact that there idiots are drawn to the "cool factor" of assassin has nothing to do with the structural strengths and weaknesses of the class.

And that's also going to benefit assassin, assault, and sniper. Like I said: Every benefit conferred upon the lower three classes benefits the top three as much or more.

I KNOW BAD PLAYERS ARE DRAWN TO ASSASSIN. READ THE THREAD.

You actually dont get the point of playinf the "inferior" 3 classes.
Gunners mortar with lvl3 passive is quite effective against bots, but thats not his job.
Gunner in short - middle range can just mow don any pro within seconds and the support isnt that bad speaking of killing enemy pros. " shotgunshots on most pros, even gold armored sins, 4 on a tank, but again, thats not his main resposibility. Keeping your turrets and fellow pros overhealed and turrets hacked aswell, building and upgrading turrets, destroying enemy turrets with your handy airstrike are also what a support has to care about.
Your team will benefit quite a bit from being constantly buffed.
And always keep in mind that you cant really rely on your team knowing how to play their class in pubgames...

tl;dr
i don't agree with you at all

//btw just wait until competative play starts and u'll see that the teams which run only assault, sin and sniper wont have a too easy play against a normal lineup.

I would have thought that the Gunner would benefit hugely from the precise aiming and ability to aim while jumping that a keyboard set-up provides. The Mortar is one of the best long-range Bot-destroying weapon next to the Railgun and Product Grenade. He is also the only Pro equipped to take out Turrets from a long distance. The Gunner is an anchor, but not in a negative sense - he locks down part of the map if played well.

I'd argue that the Assault's bomb is not particularly good at taking out Bots - apart from the Jackbot, of course. The Assault is similar to the Scout from that other game - quick to move and has a high damage output, but can't stay in the fight as long as the heavier classes.

The Sniper has a high jump height, the second-fastest base speed in the game and two area denial Skills - Traps and Flak. A clever Sniper, when confronted up close, will retreat while throwing a Flak and peppering his enemy with his SMG. If he can't retreat, he will strafe while throwing Traps on the ground.

The Tank has equal mobility to the Gunner, if he uses his jump jets well. Judging the trajectory of the Product Grenade is an important skill, as well as realising that the blinding effect actually covers quite a large area relative to the apparently tiny impact, learning when to Charge/Death Blossom/retreat and switch to Railgun - all of these skills are both awesome and indicative of a higher skill ceiling than you are giving credit for.

The Support. The clue, my friend, is in the name. He needs the support of his team-mates as much as they need him. Have you ever encountered a Support/Tank/Gunner/Firebase combo? Good luck trying to dance around that, Assault. His Firebase is not really supposed to be offensive - rather, it is used to lock down part of the map. Airstrike is used for removing enemy Firebases and Turrets, and for getting hilarious kills:

• Place Airstrike behind Assault.
• Charge at Assault with a Shotgun.
• He retreats into Airstrike.
• You relate the fable of the water and the jetski.

The Assassin. I've seen the vijeos of her lunging around corners and generally tearing new players to bits. But she loses effectiveness against any decent team with awareness and good communication. I'd also make the point that the keyboard is a less precise tool for, say, Smoke Bombing up to a narrow ledge.

Thought-provoking points. You earn a gold star for making me procrastinate on my essays.

You say what I mean better than I can, well done.

It seems like most of you aren't intelligent at all.

To say that the Assassin, Assault, Snipers aren't the top three classes when it comes to the ability to kill pros and bots is utterly retarded.

In almost every game, the skill ceiling for a sniper is, by default, higher than any other class. The fact that this class can ring-out grapple Pros, kill people incredibly fast with its Flak AND SMG just adds to this fact. That gunner and tank running area denial? Good luck getting away from a good sniper's headshot without leaving that area you are so concerned with denying.

An Assault will absolutely decimate an equally skilled "any other class". You can make ignorant arguments like "if the tank gets close...." or "if the gunner does...." but those are all chance situations. A good assault won't let the tank get close and he can just duck around a corner when the incredibly slow while spun-up gunner even tries to get near him.

If you honestly think the Assassin is easy to kill, you haven't played against somebody that is excellent at the class. An assassin with half a brain knows how to mow down any and all bot lanes on the map and can take any pro down (with the exception of the assault and tank in certain situations) without help. Even a front grapple will reduce most classes to an amount of health that only requires a lunge and a few slashes to kill after the animation. You can once again scream chance "what-if" situations, but most of those can be negated by a simple smoke bomb jump to sprint/lunge combo.

Please play against people with real skill before you make incredibly dumb notions based on your limited experience against bad pubbies.

Where do you people keep coming from? Did I say bad Assassins? No. I said Assassins. I don't care if they're good or bad. I still fear them the least in a fight.

Because it's not a fight, you just die. Toe to toe, sure you won't be scared but a good one won't give you the chance to have this "fight".

Ok, I'm beginning to notice a trend in new players thinking the Assassin is OP. Arguing does nothing as they seem to think they're right. I will leave you with this though:

I have played against excellent Assassins. I have been told I am one. Once you learn how to play against an Assassin, you will NEVER find them difficult to deal with again. This is why I can say what I say. They are extremely predictable. It's a matter of learning what they do and how they do it. That's all.

Being an avid Support player i can safely say, that from my experience they can be quite a handfull up close.
The shotgun is immensly devastating, the class is quite durable and provided the firebase isn't placed somewhere else far away, you're literally fighting 2 players at once.

But the main role is clearly supporting;
- Back up your teammates with healing/firebase placements when pushing forward,
- make sure as many turrets as possible are hacked (this especially can devastate an incomming assault)
- Lock down areas w. the firebase if possible (narrow spaces, landing areas etc.)


The supporter can't nuke down alot of targets from afar without a lucky bomb true, but he's not supposed to either.



And concerning the alleged 3 best pro killers:
- Assassins; easilly avoided due to mechanics and usually you encounter crap players since its a "cool" class which caters to the younger playerbase.
- Assaults: once you've played against a few you get the picture; avoid getting close and if you do, make sure its in a narrow area to avoid ringouts. Watch out for bomb placements.
- Snipers: _very_ predictable class. Avoid big open spaces and pay attention to the horizon.


I honestly find that the classes in MNC are very well balanced, especially compared to similar games. Each class can be a handfull if played properly and none of them are de facto "OP".

The same goes for any class when it comes to learning how to play against them. It's not new players that think Assassins are strong. Even if they don't kill you, you aren't going to kill them. Simple as that. If you do kill them, then they aren't good, or you got lucky.

I know it's not the best indicator possible, but my KDR with Gunner was 2.5 on Xbox, now it's 8. I see that as a big benefit of the PC version

Surely developers of all kinds of cooperative/competitive shooters have the same dilemma of both ensuring that game's goal itself is the most rewarding and letting the individuals feel better than others. Of course any mobile, hitscan-based class will gain from the switch, but on the other hand, just because on consoles you have a higher chance of stacking kills, that doesn't mean your team will actually win the game. On PC those certain classes' tasks are just emphasized. I could see what you mean about the gunner - he is easily dispatched, bullets just cut through him like hot knife through butter... Until he notices you. If he doesn't want you to close the distance, you will not touch him; if he doesn't want you to enter any position, you will be dead before you will think about it. Gank him 3v1? Well, that will always work on pubs. So, as this has been said a few times already, you either lead your team to victory or protect your team from losing.

And for Creator's sake, turn your headphones up and turn around frequently and Assassins will no longer pose a threat to you.

If you can predict anyone's next move, he is as good as dead.

"You only say this because you play against sucky ____" is not an adequate argument. I do think limited experience is precisely the problem here, but I don't think you're aiming at the right target, if you get my meaning.

Of course a gunner or tank is going to die if a sniper sets out to kill him, that's his entire purpose, punishing a lack of mobility with a headshot. This is traded off with a general ability for snipers to die in a stiff breeze. They have little to no health and no passive health buffs. They are a glass cannon, and complaining that they have lots of offensive ability is just ignoring the fact that they are punished for mistakes easier than perhaps any other class.

Assaults aren't so godlike and unkillable as you seem to paint them. Their entire shtick is mobility, just like the assassins, only they're a million times more visible, slightly less paper and have more options. Even if they know what they're doing, they just don't have the capacity to stand up to high damage output unless they're packing gold armor(and if they are, they're sacrificing a lot of offensive potential anyway), which makes base assaulting very impractical for them.

Assassins are all about harassment. The entire point of the class is to get in, dole some damage, and get out before anybody can do anything about it. Complaining that they have the tools to do this is ridiculous. Claiming that anyone who says that assassins aren't hard to fight against immediately after complaining about facestabs is as silly and pointless as it comes. If the assassins are constantly going for facestabs I highly doubt they are all that great at the class. At worst they are an annoyance, if you can't catch them at it, but if they're doing this constantly I don't see why you're not predicting their return and punishing their stupidity.