Make the pelican T1

Guess we know where 1 of the 2 no votes came from. I'm not really worried about any of the issues you raise. The commander has been seriously nerfed since the pelican was last T1. Moving him around early on is an extremely high risk move - pass over the other com and your dead. If the other com gets out a single fighter - your dead. Not to mention during that time your opponent has had a chance to build more factories putting them well ahead of you in the essential production race. The specific examples you give sound incredibly situational (FoI is a custom map). And yes, pelicans being viable means map awareness will continue to be one of the single most important skills. That's war - intelligence. Don't forget that pelican drops are themselves micro intensive and easy to counter - particularly now that the t1 fighter is cheaper than it was previously. If they do end up being OP, the solution is an increased cost, not removing them entirely.

If pelicans will be Tier 1 i think its important that all anti air prioritizes it before fighterplanes.

Also remember if someone air drops a com successfully onto the front he will have *0* support units at that point, leaving him a ripe boom bot target

It could prove to be a winning move if you pull it off, but on the flip side extremely risky. I like adding in a bit of that into the game... Balanced Annihilation (Spring RTS) has the ability to air lift commanders with the t1 transport and this is exactly what happens... it's by no means a guaranteed win but on *some maps* it can lead to a decisive victory if you pull it off and then survive in the forward position long enough to capitalise on it. I actually remember one 8 v 8 team game where all bar 2 commanders (one each side) died due to a screwed up air drop technique (basically 2 players, one on each team, went for the same drop location and then killed each other leaving 2 very valuable com wrecks. To prevent the other team getting an advantage, both sides then sent additional commanders to secure the wrecks... commence one of the funniest spectator event's I've seen in an RTS ).

The issue we all had with the t1 air transport when it was first introduced, was that air lifting provided a huge advantage to the attacker with little consequences. It was by far and above the optimum (and only) sensible build with that balance- as once you destroyed your opponents energy you were guaranteed a win in a direct fight against the opposing commander.

As things are now, that's unlikely to be possible as it's be difficult to get close enough to the commander to get to the energy (due to commander AA), and factory first is easily possible (meaning high chance of a fighter) and your commander is much weaker in direct combat now. This all needs testing though...

I think the reason they moved it to t2 is because it was too easy to transport coms- simple solution? Don't let it carry commanders.




Hey, remember back in TA where people would grab your commander with the transport aircraft (atlas) and fly it over someone as a bomb?

I'm going reply to philoscience and then cdrkf.

Philoscience, I actually hadn't voted at that time.

I'm really only against it if the commander can be moved other than that I don't think it will be a big issue.

The commander still has the best build power and more firepower than any tier 1 unit. In symmetrical maps where you know where the other commander is it isn't a risky move. We didn't have a single fighter out by the time he landed. One of our teamates went air first by the way. He moved a quarter across the map. This going to be limited to FOL it is going to be any game where a location you don't spawn at is important. Either a choke point, heavy mex feild, or the expansion point outside the enemy base.

The time to move is so low that we didn't have more production. we had a quarter more of a factory done. by the time he landed and started producing units and factories. I had 2 dox finished that was my total army. Certainly not a force capable of anything. FOL is my favorite map by far and this will ruin it. Along with hot platforms and numerous others.

You can't counter at the beginning you can't get a fighter up quickly enough. the pelican is 45 metal. the fighter is 180. The air factory can build at 9 metal a second. (180-45)/9 = 15 seconds is enough to go very far with a pelican before a fighter can roll off a factory not to mention flight time. How can I counter this. Please someone tell me other than moving my own commander will just end up with one of us destroyed in air. Do you really want a pelican that cost 180 or 240 metal? That will at least allow a fighter to maybe stop if but it means almost all matches are going to start fighter first to stop this or you lose. Meaning boring games with little variety. It will ruin this game, there was a reason it was removed and it is still there. The reason the commander is so slow is because it is so powerful once you remove that you either use it or lose.

cdrkf, we couldn't boom bot snipe, as i said before I had 2 dox by the time he landed and started producing a factory. You will need what 40 boom bots to snipe a commander more if he uses a nice unit cannon. by the time I could build that much metal he already had a base and as well defended enough I couldn't muster a force and march it over there quick enough. You can not tell me this is an effective counter. You simply can't build enough boom bots to do this in that time frame as well he focused a lot of their production in middle to stop anything from stopping him. The completely right move in this scenario leaving a dull and boring game.

Not to mention you need to know he moved and is defenseless which the commander isn't by virtue of his uber cannon. Meaning scout and by the time you've scouted this, it is already to late to do anything.

It will prove to be the winning move. That is the problem. games will be decided in 30 seconds. Those will be boring for the loser because he can't counter this and boring for the winner because he will just stomp his enemy with map control.

The problem is that the risk doesn't exist for 15 seconds. and on the off chance you move your commander over the other commander than the match is lost in 30 same problem as before boring matches decided in 30 seconds. I assure anyone who isn't brain dead could survive a commander move to an undefended position if it is the first thing he does. There is no way to muster a force to defeat him.

I'm sure that spring match was hilarious to watch and boring as all **** to play. I can't imagine either team would enjoy that certainly not when that turned into half of their matches.

You said it yourself.

"The issue we all had with the t1 air transport when it was first introduced, was that air lifting provided a huge advantage to the attacker with little consequences. It was by far and above the optimum (and only) sensible build with that balance- as once you destroyed your opponents energy you were guaranteed a win in a direct fight against the opposing commander."

The only thing that has changed in that sentence is no longer destroy your opponents energy which at least required scouting and knowledge of enemy defenses but now it is gain map control to out eco your opponent before he even has a chance to defend or retaliate.

I'm not worried about my energy till infernos come into play but map control will be decided in 30 seconds on a lot of maps. Destroying the fun. How much can you either noob stomp with a commander transport or die in air because your opponent landed first.

There will be maps that this doesn't matter where metal is evenly distributed with very little features. So unless you really love moons with spread out metal this will ruin most games.

If anyone wants to watch the replay here it is

15422731541059984565

I've been thinking about Pelicans, price and meat shielding. It actually ends up being kinda tricky. Here is my path of reasoning:

If ground AA prioritizes Pelicans as suggested earlier, then you can bring along Pelicans with your Bumblebees as meat shields.

So make ground AA prioritize Bumblebees, but if ground AA prioritizes Bumblebees you can bring along Bumblebees along to meat shield your Inferno drop.

So make Pelicans really expensive, but then they end up as the Combat Fabrication Bot: too expensive to use.

So, instead, make the ground AA prioritize Pelicans again, now you bring along a bunch of empty Pelicans to tank damage for your Inferno drop.

What you really is for ground AA to prioritize Pelicans carrying something over empty Pelicans. The problem is still that you can use empty Pelicans to tank damage for your Bumblebees.

Lets make ground AA prioritize Pelican carrying something over Bumblebees, but then prioritize Bumblebees over empty Pelicans.

Now the problem is still the empty Pelican carrying something cheap, like a Dox, as a meat shield for Bumblebees.

So the last step is to make the Pelican expensive enough so that the cost of a Pelican + Dox as a meat shield isn't worth it over just bringing more Bombers. 45 metal is too low, even for the low HP of the Pelican.

Maybe a appropriate cost for the Pelican would be 180, same as the Hummingbird. The Bumblebee is still more expensive, but it also has a lot more health than the Pelican, and at 180 the Pelican can still be useful at T2, you just don't want to waste them.


Conclusion:
Target prioritization: Pelican carrying something > Bumblebee > empty Pelican.
Cost of Pelican: 180 metal.

There is still room to tweak the cost/HP of the Pelican to make it useful at T1, but not as a meat shield.

I wonder if pelican drops will replace proxy telly strats.

No, the Bumblebee and Pelican effectively both have the same HP. The prioritisation really isn't a problem. Make the prioritisation:
bombers > gunships > transports> other air.
You cannot use bombers as a meat shield for Pelicans, because the bombers are too slow, unmanoeuvrable, and are really expensive for such a tiny amount of "protection". Empty Pelicans also aren't a good meat shield provided their cost is increased a bit, but I think x4 to 180 is too extreme. Personally I'd like to see their HP buffed so they need 3 fighter shots instead of 2 as well, because air battles are over so quickly in PA

To be fair the majority of units in the game take one or two hits.

Please refer to the latest clan wars replay why pelicans shouldn't be able to pick up commanders.

I have never used a pelican before, never saw the need to it because at t2 I often have better transportation options. They should if put in t1 be very weakly armored in my opinion.

As to the pelican being "utterly useless" on T2, you could not be more wrong:

Harassing resources against Masteroflness at 29:00 min mark.
Sniping a commander, out of desperation, who is about to stomp my weakened base with a heavy platoon at 34:54.
Manipulating Masterforlness troops, harassing his Mexs, and keeping his army busy while my base rebuilds from previous attacks at 39:29.


Sniping a sniper before he can rush me at 17:43.
Luring players army away from his base and then sniping his commander at 25:14.


And these are but a few, I have videos after videos of GilE drops, Vanguard drops, Boom Bot drops, quickly moving armies from getting nuked and relocating to continue their campaign, dropping off slammers on a Leviathan (which is otherwise unapproachable by ground units), transporting eggies to needed locations, rescuing $$ troops and taking home!

Useless.... hmmm, I would blame the commander, NOT the troop on this one.

As to them being useful on T1, I will not comment until I see them in action. I will say I am worried about their nerf @jables , and is this nerf a result of moving them to T1? Decreased speed may hinder them for much of my use, especially in late game. The greatest strength to me is that they are the same speed as the hummingbirds. If I am going to:
1. take up a combat slot for a transport in my production line
2. risk $$$ units on missions
3. want to have the ability to abort mission or even return home after a mission, because if I take a percent of my troops on field for sorties, they need a good chance to succeed because if they fail I have weakened my position at home be decreasing my main army size with no tactical gain from the sortie.

If I am going to do these things I need to be able to avoid capture. If the pelican is slower then my risk to return ratio makes them not as attractive to use. As it is with their speed now, the ability to pull them off comes down to scouting and micro skill because they are the same speed as their prey. If they are slower, well... no amount of micro is going to save you against a faster far more out numbered prey.

But I have often wanted them in T1 so let us see how that plays out. I am worried that having them at T1 will make them useful for a small amount of time early game and then late game their window of usefulness will wane away... but we shall see.

--B8factor

Commander should be allowed to be used in pelican. It is high risk, therefore demands appropriately set high reward (building mex faster for example). The question to ask is, does it make for fun games both to play and to spectate?

The answer is resoundingly yes, especially if you get to the higher levels of play where both players are aware of this meta and how to counter it. In such cases, this mechanic adds just another flavour, and it is always funny when there is an over-extension or misjudgement resulting in a big explosion and lots of shame. Though admittedly one would have to take care not to over-extend the 'cheese' factor. If this was to get out of control, a simple pelican move speed reduction can be done.

When it comes to new players, it also adds to the game as another 'omg how kool is this new thing i can do'. This is a hook.

The cost of this tactic is also proportionate as people like clopse have demonstrated. Using your commander as a firefighter and a mex builder means that your commander build uptime is going to be much lower than your opponent. You will have lesser ammount of factories and units, and will die to prolonged macro if you continue doing this stuff.

There is an interesting tradeoff that can only add to decision making as well as importance of scouting and player interaction within the game.

With the increased teleporter costs, they most likely will be better than teleporters in the 1v1's. In the team games, probably still want the teleporters coz of the throughput but will be harder to get up

Essentially at T2, you will rarely ever see them, and their uses could be seen a lot more if placed in the T1 Category. T2 Air is pretty useless considering how weak it is right now. Why should I bother with T2 Air, when I can just use T2 Vehicles and slaughter armies with a handful of shellers and snipe a comm? Worried about attacks by air? Throw in some humming birds and Spinners.

As Elodea said, throwing Pelicans into T1 open up a lot of gameplay mechanics and interesting builds.

ugh im really starting to hate this decision