The Limits of the Astraeus.

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by wpmarshall, January 9, 2015.

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  1. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    I will preface this post by saying that I haven't been playing 'too' much PA recently because of various things occurring that require my attention. However one thing is clear to me; the Astraeus is useful for perhaps a few minutes' window in a multiplayer game (as I understand that it is much more 'required' in Galactic War to a certain extent.

    When I say it has a small window of usefullness I mean that it is useful for the early colonisation of planets that may be unclaimed however once everyone get's into the orbital game, claims planets etc the Astraeus to me becomes like sugar paper in a preschool; instantly torn up :p . Joking aside I believe that Astraeus has not got a place in PA in it's current iteration with the new mechanics added into PA recently.

    Let me pose a Mid-Late game orbital scenario to you where you have lots of planets in a system; all are claimed by at least 1 player each; where is the Astraeus used? It was used to get your commander or a fabber to that planet in the first place or for a rush evacuation to another planet that is likely to yield a wagon as welcoming as a lingering smell in an overcrowded elevator; you'll end up either commander hopping around or sniped as soon as you touch down on the planet. Beyond that first colonisation phase the Astraeus is used very little as it is far too flimsy and the mechanics of it are poor and unhelpful.
    in addition, mid-late game orbital battles now (given the unit cannon) consist of launching nukes / units / orbital forces + a fabber for a tele proxy - There are no Astraeii used in this stage. Orbital games very quickly become a case of who can throw the most stuff at the other at any one given time. Invasions are instigated through teleporters or mass cannon drops. You never get armies dropped using an Astraeus.

    Now, I know what you're thinking; 1. This guy isn't making any sense and/or 2. No-one ever uses Astraeus for army drops because they aren't purposed for that.
    I am not suggesting that they should be used for army drops however I am getting a little tired of seeing units going to waste - the astraeus if made a bit beefier could be used to transport fabbers - get them to the ground layer and set up a beachhead before the teleport or even without the need for one.

    I guess what I am trying to say is this; The Astraeus at the moment is used for colonisation or 'quick' escapes. Orbital invasions consist of Tele drops, Nukes or Cannon drops (or combinations thereof). Orbital defence, especially on smaller planets is quite powerful, especially against an astraeus, and once you control a planet is easy to lock it down to the point that nukes or Unit Cannon Comm Snipes are the only way to get through (leaving Halley/Catalysts aside). Why not make the Astraeus much beefier and improve it's mechaanics so it might be useful in more circumstances.

    Problems Highlighted;
    > Too easy to kill Astraeus
    > When trying to load, Astraeus needs to go back into the orbital layer, move across, then come back down - Time wasted which could be perhaps crucial (I have not managed to get the Astraeus to move within the air layer.
    > Orbital games become slugging fests of Nukes/Cannons/Tele Drop Attempts from Orbital Fabbers
    > Astraeus could be useful as a 'fabber-Beach-head' invasion technique.

    TL;DR - I feel as though the Astraeus is useless beyond early game orbital colonisation and would like to explore ways in which it could be brought back to being useful mid-late orbital games.

    Disclaimer - I have had no sleep at time of writing this post - apologies if it makes little sense, lacks clarity or that the ideas may be poorly thought out.
    wpmarshall, January 9, 2015
    #1
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  2. Geers

    Geers Post Master General

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    Two things need to happen:
    1. Astraeus stops dancing to the Nutcracker Suite when doing what it's supposed to be doing.
    2. Astraeus needs to be at least twice as fast.
    Geers, January 9, 2015
    #2
    radongog, stuart98, ace63 and 2 others like this.
  3. killerkiwijuice

    killerkiwijuice Post Master General

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    Teleporter needs a role change to a support niche (like, a huge price increase). Right now it's faster, cheaper, AND better to use a teleporter.
    killerkiwijuice, January 9, 2015
    #3
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  4. dusanak

    dusanak Member

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    What if it was made cheaper and was then used in a similar way to Pelicans? To mass them, load a lot of units and do mass drops.
    dusanak, January 9, 2015
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  5. killerkiwijuice

    killerkiwijuice Post Master General

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    The astreus can't be made cheaper but the teleporter can be made many times more expensive so people don't ignore the astreus.

    And also why is this in General discussion?
    killerkiwijuice, January 9, 2015
    #5
  6. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    It was intended more as an exploration of possible uses of the Astraeus, rather than a balance thread.
    wpmarshall, January 9, 2015
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  7. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    what's an Astraeus and who's dumb enough to use that unit?
    tatsujb, January 9, 2015
    #7
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  8. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    2 Daring Individuals?

    wpmarshall, January 9, 2015
    #8
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  9. squishypon3

    squishypon3 Post Master General

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    That was back in Beta from the looks of the build bar... x3
    squishypon3, January 9, 2015
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  10. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    or the icons.

    Idk

    ever since the gate came out I couldn't be bothered.
    tatsujb, January 9, 2015
    #10
  11. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Only use i've found for astreus is lifting commander out of danger of counter attack when you are trying to orbital cheese people. Other than that, it's currently a noob trap unit. There really isn't much use to using one over an orbital fabber even in the small window marshall mentioned. Not to mention you get continued use out of the efficiency of the orbital fabber build turret whereas the astreus becomes dead metal. Though this could all potentially change at the drop of a hat with any future changes to t1 economy or orbital fabber strength that tvinita has hinted are coming.

    Astreus has the potential to provide an interesting, niche transport role throughout the game by just tweaking some existing numbers. These might include,
    • Cheaper cost
    • Smaller in size like they did with the naval units
    • Able to carry small number of units or one commander
    • Un/load faster(vertical speed)
    • Travel between planets much much faster (currently it has the slowest system velocity)
    • More health so they arn't insta-sniped by fighters.

    Making it quicker and overall more expedient allow it to become the preferred choice for colonising planets that are further away. You end up creating a tension where you can expand very fast across the system (no energy required for teleporters), but it's not necessarily safe to do so because astreus doesn't give you the pressure that a teleporter does. Basically a cheap man's unit cannon.

    For example, the time taken to build an orbital fabber + travel + teleport could be more than the time taken to build astreus + fabber/s + travel + teleport. This also creates a potential counter to straight up orbital fabber rushing other than rushing your own orbital fabber. In relation to this, I would also suggest that unit cannon drop pods travel slower to help create space for astreus use in the late game.

    Making astreus more mobile will go on to limit the ammount of time that people can keep their commander in system travel to troll or delay games that they've already lost. Or unintential issues where commanders stay in orbit for literally 20 minutes on ladder maps (styx). zzz

    Anyway, whether or not uber changes anything they should also fix bouncing. Easily solvable with a hardly noticeable 0.5 to 1 second orbital arrival cooldown for umbrellas to shoot. The one use only idea is not good because there are problems with the implementation, including how you intuitively communicate it to the player, and whether it creates or destroys gameplay depth just for the sake of solving a problem.
    Last edited: January 9, 2015
    elodea, January 9, 2015
    #11
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  12. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    The problem isn't really with the Astreaus - it's with the orbital expansion game as a whole. It needs diversity, and right now, the obvious choice is the orbital fabber for expansion. You can quickly set up teleporters around the solar system, then pick and choose your destination. And, if you are lucky, a free invasion option.

    That said, the Astreaus itself needs some serious improvements. The mechanics of it's ground to space movement can be quite wonky, not to mention the planet hopping commander exploit. Elodea covered most of the main points, so I won't repeat what has already been said.

    Orbital, imho, has the chance to be an interesting part of the game. Unfortunately, it's bogged down with buggy units, flawed roles, and imbalanced structures. It really needs help :(
    mered4, January 9, 2015
    #12
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  13. kryovow

    kryovow Well-Known Member

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    astraeus is completely useless.
    kryovow, January 9, 2015
    #13
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  14. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    it's a single unit transport, it's basically supposed to be useless
    theseeker2, January 9, 2015
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  15. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    tatsujb, January 9, 2015
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  16. bengeocth

    bengeocth Post Master General

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    just do these steps
    1) Make Astraeus faster in both orbital layer and space. An advantage should be winning the race to a different planet.
    2) Make teleporter more expensive
    3) Allow transport of more than one unit at a time. C'mon, doesn't that seem possible? This is one of the reasons people ignore the Astraeus!
    4) Give BenGeocth a delta commander. This would severely affect how much the Astraeus is used!
    5) Increase Astraeus health. It should be as tough as an ARKYD.
    bengeocth, January 9, 2015
    #16
  17. emraldis

    emraldis Post Master General

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    emraldis, January 9, 2015
    #17
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  18. nixtempestas

    nixtempestas Post Master General

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    Just for the shits and giggles I threw a mod up on PAMM called Astraeus Buff which increases health to 500 and decreases metal cost to 200

    Before anyone yells "holy **** nix! are you crazy?! that's crazy!" yes i know, I just want to see what happens and let the results be more spectacular :)

    I'll probably update it soon to monkey around with it's system speed to.
    nixtempestas, January 9, 2015
    #18
  19. mot9001

    mot9001 Well-Known Member

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    I think on styx it all comes down to scouting. If he makes astreus you got to counter completely different then with a orbital engineer. The main strenght of the unit might actually be placing your enemy on the wrong foot.
    mot9001, January 10, 2015
    #19
  20. calmesepai

    calmesepai Member

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    What about removing orbital fabber ability to build on the ground?
    calmesepai, January 10, 2015
    #20
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