Vanilla as reference: Uber should focus on adding as much hooks, options, and modability as possible

Discussion in 'Planetary Annihilation General Discussion' started by philoscience, October 31, 2014.

  1. philoscience

    philoscience Post Master General

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    Simple idea, maybe controversial for some. Uber has never been great at balancing this game. They don't really play it enough to have a good feel for the ins-and-outs. Every balance cycle is the same iteration of over-reaction and over-correction. Now that modded servers are going to be visible by default, it will be much easier to get players into them. The mod scene is already doing amazing things with what it has available - full rebalance mods, rescale, new units, a minimap, and more.

    Given the small (and shrinking) size of uber, I think their best bet is to give us as many hooks, flags, and mod points as possible. Give us a few extra models. As many weapon types as possible. Make everything as modular as can be done within reason. Then watch the mod community go nuts. Remember that DOTA was originally a mod. This game engine has a lot of potential - embrace the community backed nature of this game and it will flourish. If uber throws their weight into populating as many options as possible, I believe the community will create a variety of excellent playstyles, game types, and balance options. Every black-and-white argument about these things will become a new niche specialization.

    Now for those who are going to scream about how too many niches will kill the game - just look at minecraft. I played non-vanilla minecraft for many more years than I did vanilla. Modders took that game in so many directions the developer couldn't. This in turned fed and sustained vanilla to the point it is at now. Vanilla is the reference point. I'm not saying to stop working on it, just to stop pretending it will ever be the dominant or 'best' mode. Make it an incredibly flexible reference and watch the community turn this game into a phenomenon.

    I think Uber is already going this way, just wanted to encourage it.
  2. LeadfootSlim

    LeadfootSlim Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't give up hope on Uber in terms of balancing just yet. They've had a rough time in trying to get a second Kickstarter off the ground and failing, and dealing with the fallout from that... and it's a lot to deal with.

    I feel like they've gotten the T1/T2 roles down reasonably right, as I opined here:

    Right now the biggest balance issues can be tweaked with a little number fiddling - some of which they've confirmed they're working on, as Jables noted they're taking a look at naval and Dox. The only place there'd be a cause for concern is whether or not we'll get any new units to fill gaps in the roster, such as subs (confirmed to be working on) and the unit cannon/dropships/anything at all for orbital invasions (not so confirmed).

    But then, I come from a non-"Com" background, and the history of this series has had modders tweak and master the balance repeatedly. Either way, easier access to modded games should hopefully be a good thing; I would hate to see too many competing mods fragment the player base, however.
    philoscience and MrTBSC like this.
  3. nanolathe

    nanolathe Post Master General

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    Only mods of significant quality, yet opposing vision, would do so... and those are few and far between even in a healthy modding community.

    As always, I support any call to place more focus on the modding community, modding capability, modding visibility, and ease of use.
    stuart98 and philoscience like this.
  4. philoscience

    philoscience Post Master General

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    Fragmentation gets talked about a lot but I'm not sure it is really as big of a concern as many make it out to be. The server downloads mods automatically so players just need to click and go. It's not like some difficult conversion process where you won't be able to easily swap between vanilla and mods. I think players are pretty capabable of hot swapping back and forth particularly once they get a bit bored of vanilla. What does "fragmentation" really mean when it is as simple as joining or leaving a lobby? Sure over time some mods will become more popular than others or even supersede vanilla, but with the barrier to swapping being so low, I don't see the lock in implied by these fragmentation fears. Sounds like a very theory driven thing probably ported here from early beta or other games entirely.
  5. nlgenesis

    nlgenesis Member

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    Are you sure that's true? I think I read somewhere that at least with the icons there is a problem. So it's not a "difficult conversion process", but the players do need to download the client mod.

    EDIT: Here is the post I was referring to:
    With the introduction of server mods to default..
    https://forums.uberent.com/threads/with-the-introduction-of-server-mods-to-default.65645/
    Last edited: October 31, 2014
  6. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    That's a bug though, people do hope that will get fixed for exactly that reason.
  7. LeadfootSlim

    LeadfootSlim Well-Known Member

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    Difficulty of installation isn't what necessarily causes difficulty; it's player adaptation. We have enough lack of tutorial problems in vanilla, so how can players join a mod lobby and immediately know how to use its new features?
  8. philoscience

    philoscience Post Master General

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    Same way they learn the vanilla game; by playing it.
  9. igncom1

    igncom1 Post Master General

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    So by extension, they don't?
  10. LeadfootSlim

    LeadfootSlim Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of making an insane quote chain even longer; precisely. In gams I've played before with mods, lacj of documentation creates a barrier for entry; a given balance mod or custom game mode has its own meta, its own nuances, etc.... in some cases, failure to learn these rules (esp. When relying on a third party source) before entering a lobby can be met with outright hostility and votekicks. Mass adoption is tricky because of this.

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