Hey-- YOU! Don't post that whine. Read this instead!

This should be posted and stickied in the 360 side too. Well put.

Woot I got a sticky! <3

Fantastic post. Not only informative, but a highly enjoyable read. Well done fischbs. Cake for you!

It only takes 1-2 people to prevent a total lane collapse if the other team pushes up to your turrets. In which case no number of turrets is going to help, you are stuck shooting bots to prevent them from dropping the shields. With just players this can be done pretty effectively and you in essence are just hoping the other lane for the enemy team collapses before yours does since they committed a lot of resources to push that hard.

Turrets aren't going to last against multiple attackers. You don't even need juice to do it, unless you have like 3 supports. Which would be dumb because it just causes the situation in the first place...

Gaining "defender's advantage" has nothing at all to do with turrets, they are only a (lackluster and expensive) delay tactic. The advantages you have are the high ground (the upper ring) and lots of cover. Attacking from bot lanes provides minimal cover when closing that last distance. Using your advantages as a defender is something you need to effectively use to prevent a shield drop. Turrets in no way factor into this given proper spam and lane pushing. They only delay the inevitable if you expect them to stop any serious pressure (even 3.3 RockIt turrets).

This is the exact same thinking that leads to awful TF2 games. Defense does not win. Defense only delays and detracts (significantly in many cases) from offensive punch when it is actually needed.

I disagree. It's not inevitable. In fact it is quite common for one team to make a push, only to be killed off by a good defense (turrets and pro's). After that it possible for the defending team to move up and take control of the middle ground once again and even turn the tide of the game.

However, if teams are stacked and it is obvious in the first 3minutes that you have no chance, then yes, you are right.

I jus tthink its wrong to right off turrets as, well, useless. They definitely serve a purpose and there would be no point in them otherwise. A base filled with level 3 turrets is a nightmare.

Only to people that can't shoot their guns and kill things. Get 2-3 people. Have them all shoot a level 3 (whatever) with their good turret killing guns. See how long it lasts.

I think poilk is right in making a distinction. I've played plenty of games where I can push my bots right up to their bot spawn, but not past it.

Usually this is because we haven't taken care of the enemy's turrets...

Shh... Don't tell anyone I gave you this information: Shoot the turrets when you are pushed up! If you are *really* lucky another person on your team might see you doing this and help out.

Don't tell anyone though!

but the primary goal is to kill enemy wookies..
if the players can't play then 1 pro on each lane is enough to push the lanes..

i say 4 assassins and 2 tanks :geek:

added:

or 5 assassins and 1 tank, 1 lane is enough

Fireman turrets aren't exactly made of paper. They take awhile to destroy, especially if supported (by either players or a support). If you're not shooting the bots or pros, and only shooting the turrets, then your pros and bots are being attacked while theirs are not. I'm not saying turrets are the end all be all of defense, but they are a crucial element of survival in this game. If you think otherwise then play without any turrets as speed bumps for strong bot pushes and see what happens. It's easy to say "Yeah get three bros to shoot them at the same time" but there's more to it than that.

This also goes without saying that players that juice against a team that has no turrets only have the enemy pros to shoot at, rather than taking down the turrets, which means any juiced player is going to dominate half your team (or at least get them away from the bot push while they retreat) then the push is going to make it to the moneyball pretty easily.

This is also a help thread for people who play on pubs nearly 100% of the time. Turrets are invaluable in pubs. Maybe in a highly coordinated clan match you could get away with a laser thin defense around your Moneyball, but that's easily punished by a strong bot push in a pub.

Turrets are not meant to be bastions of *** whipping gun totting badassry, they're speed bumps. And those are important.

So lay off my turrets homes.

I f*cking love you. I'm not even reading the rest of the post, after reading halfway through the OP. No more is necessary.

to bad only 5% off the playerbase will exualy read it..

further thumbs up for this stickey,,,

I fully support including a link to this thread in the game menu.

I fully support the tutorial of the game being replaced with a forced read of this thread.

+1, current tutorial is borderline useless anyway.

Support the tutorial being ramped up?

^ Yup, I heartily agree. It's only there to teach the basics of the basics. Doesn't tell how to spawn bots, use ejectors and annihilators, and doesn't tell you how important turrets are.

^ God knows that spawning bots increases the pressure on the other team.

I read this in Team Fortress 2's Soldier's voice. Twas a good read, chap.

Turrets aren't as important as what is around the turrets(The players). As a Sin, I've taken down countless towers because no one watches over them, and because no one ever bothers to grapple me when I use juice.