Ideas on how to balance the sniper

And here i thought all forums were like SPUF

Rate of Fire < Fix the headshots

its TOO easy to get headshots, that is point blank the problem, ive never died to Body shot spams, I know how to find cover after the first one... the problem is decent snipers making GODLY shots due to mechanics of headshots in the game being far to simple for a mouse and keyboard control scheme..

I would not be surprised if lvl 3 sniper was getting headshots based on explosive damage from hitting the pro in say the SHOULDER.. he hits shoulder and the head recieves explosive shot damage, registering as a head shot..

Its either that, or the hit boxes are too large.. with minimal effort I can perform SNAP headshots in this game, and having sniped in MANY games, I can tell you, it doesnt feel challenging, it feels EASY.

THIS is how you fix it, make headshots harder, good snipers will still be good, but luck or (geting close) wont get them kills anymore.. it will eliminate all the QQ over OMG how did he make that shot for the 3rd time in a row, without effecting bot killing power.

tiny, these dudes will never understand it. its kinda like visiting the short bus and trying to have have a normal conversation, it just isnt going to happen.

all we can hope for is the devs to read the threads about this topic and deliver a reasonable update over time. but trying to convince the regular tards just isnt working.

... :|
If you are not going to put up any neutral arguments that assists your cause I suggest you refrain from turning to insults, it's not an auto-win move if that's what you think. Besides what is reasonable to you? What would you consider to be reasonable? And how would you prevent it from making the game imbalanced?

yeah i'd really like to know where GRIM plays competitively, he keeps claiming that sniper is fine in competition, but truth is.. there hasnt been ONE competitive tournament for this game yet.. there are NO private competitive servers, and MNC has NO placing in any competitive leage like TWL for instance.

that is just somethig they say because they were in BETA.. as if those few weeks made them gods... and the rest of us just don't get it..

from now on, no one gets to claim COMPETITIVE as an argument.. they can start again a few WEEKS after competitive servers go live, and tournaments start happening.

its annoying.. I could say i play competitive because i play on a few dedicated servers, where the same people always go, and all have a high level of skill.. But i don't because it would be a misrepresentation of fact..

Snipers get headshots too easy with mouse and keyboard controls.. rate of fire will nerf mediocre snipers, who body shot, it will do nothing for good snipers who can now consistantly pull off shots that should not be consistantly possible.. LUCK is not factoring in the way it should, because the margine between luck and intent has been closed drastically by a lack of required aim and timing to make headshots..

.. either way I'm done in this thread, Please anyone here who plays competitive please post where and what league you are part of, so that I can join and come see the game you guys are claiming to play, because it sounds totaly different and much more balanced than the one the rest of us lowley noobs are playing in..


I mean, whos the number one sniper in the game right now? Number one gunner? What clan is top of the league.. can i watch some of their tournament footage to learn more?

exactly....

I mean grimbars really vocal about all this but

http://uberent.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=6467 according to his post, his experience amounts to 2 people playing games together for years, and now trying to start a clan for competitive play.. yet he comes on here like hes a pro tourney player handing out advice to us no competitive players.. its highly annoying, as it presents an arguemnt you cant argue against.. atleast until you do a little research and find out that he actualy hasnt won or even DONE any real competitive play yet.

Ohman, it's the TF2 community all over again! D:

"Proof or it didn't happen."

The other side will provide proof.
"Not good enough."

The other side provides more proof.
"Not good enough."

The other side provides more proof again.
"Not good enough."

The other side once again provides proof.
"Not good enough."

The other side gives up the discussion.
"HA! SEE?! I WAS RIGHT!!! YOU LOSE NOOBOMGTROLOLOLOLOLO"

Somebody already said this on these forums, I don't remember who though... And he predicted this. ;

sorry dude, the moment you elitist starting calling everyone who disagree with you names and other **** i lost my ability to be nice. bablefish is the only person who has posted in this thread that I can remember playing with, he is a darn good assault, but he didnt come here to talk ****, for some of you others, thats not the case. you may be better than most of us as you say, but that does not make our opinions invalid.

and i think that you are about as stupid as one can be if you think the sniper rifle is balanced, its the easiest thing to use since the wheel was invented.

what?

A.V.A.M. is a long-term project by my neighbour and me, nowhere does it state that I haven't played other games - I mentor mid/mid+ (in EU terms that is) TF2 players, I don't need to win tournaments to say that I am a competitive gamer and if my talk about competitive MNC was wrong you'd see the other competitive people say something about it. But hey nay-saying my opinion because you don't agree with it or can't present any decent fix sure is better than being productive!

Unfortunately for you, non-believer, I tend to be right and just because you don't see the scrims it doesn't mean they don't exist. This however has no place in this thread - as done as this thread is - and I'd rather have you take this matter elsewhere.

If I may add, the explosive shot doesn't trigger headshots.

Obado, grimbar

No it DOES have a place here, because you keep using it as an argument. You get onto a highhorse and claim to "KNOW ALL" because you play competitive.

So now you need to show us where you play this game competitivley, or stop using it as an arguement. There have been SOME scrims, organized on random servers.. show me your server? Or the one you use for scrims? You know, the one where an admin has control and can kick out not scrim players? Where are the fraps videos of the scrim? Where was the bracket? Was it open to anyones entry?

Other wise its just you and 5 guys of verying skill sets, playing 6 other guys of verying skill sets.. for all we know there is more SKILL going on, in random pubs. And thats a fact..

You know the numbers behind the skills and than make claims that your extensive knowledge of COMP play makes you an expert.. Well i'm calling your bluff.. I don't think you have any EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE of COMP play at all. I think you and a neighbor like video gaming, you play together a lot, and few times you've been in tournaments for other games.. I think youve played a few scrims here, and I think all that amounts to you knowing as much about this game as me or anyone else here. DUDE you and a neighbor playing games together and enjoying them is GREAT its what gaming is all about.. why not just leave it at that, and make arguements based on fact, instead of implied status.

You make snide comments, from a top a throne of lies (throne of lies lol) and attempt to belittle the legitimate comments made by so called "non pro gamers"

its annoying and counter productive to the community..

Hit me back, when you do a few actual tournaments, or start scriming in a league, until then its juts you playing with some friends. And that doesnt equate to jack diddly, more than any of us playing in pubs.. hell the pubs I frequent have the same names every time.. So I guess i'm scrimming. Too.

WHAT OTHER COMPETITIVE PLAYERS are you talking about, you know the ones who didnt say anything at all when you made claims, and whos silence you are now using as proof you are correct?

See atleast I have somone agreeing with me, and hes an expert right? Cause I said he was..

I'm sure a few other so called COMPLAYERS will come to your defense, so before you do guys.. do yourself a favor, start with some links to footage and the name of the league your in.

other wise the rest of us PUBERS are just kinda tired of hearing it.

does grimbar act like an elitist....yes

does grimbar know what he is talking about....yes

end of arguement

fixed.

also, what class does he play most?

I'm a pubber, a lot of people here are pubbers. A lot of us disagree with you. Please don't lump us in with your retarded ***.

Oh you want to call it quits?
After I finally understood what you were even saying and how dumb it was?

Fair enough.

You go on and keep thinking that the game's balanced for low level play, kiddo.
Also have fun with that "Everyone's equal at peak skill" theorem. That'll make everyone respect you.

What a waste of time.

Well, actually, the main reason the Sniper doesn't see competitive play is that he has low mobility compared to the other classes - mainly emphasised by the fact that he can't move and attack at the same time.
He weighs down your team, and basically has to be protected by the pocket soldier - which just tethers the combo down more. Meanwhile, you're missing a Scout or Soldier - which fit the competitive format better.
Also, most map geometry in competitive maps even favours Scouts being able to flank common Sniper positions - but on maps that are a little more difficult to flank on, with good sight lines, you see more Sniper play (of course).
Snipers have nothing to stop approaches (by Scouts, roamings) or deny the map aside from their Sniper Rifle - meaning they can't protect themselves and are killed easily by spam.
The amount of time they have to spend in scope to get headshots and other kills, again, is a big factor slowing them down.

If the Sniper had no delay for headshots, and now movement penalty when Sniping, I'm sure he'd be used in competitive play far more - but right now he's too slow.

Also, like, if you do feel like arguing this, please don't - I was a competitive Scout, Sniper, Soldier and Medic for 3 years...

The MNC Sniper is even more than that, with faster Rate of Fire and Ice Traps that could actually help him kill scouts if he was in TF2.
He fits competitive formats on PC.

Over the past 2 weeks I've had about 6-7 games with Statement (yes, he is an Aussie), and I have lead my team to victory in 3 of them with good kill/deaths and map control.
2 was me playing Assault, 1 was me playing Tank. He was playing Assault in all 3.

So. Umm. I dunno, unless on each of those occasions he was having an awful match - I think I fare reasonably against him - and hopefully by extension, most good players.

Like, I stomp pubs 45/0 like the rest of you.

Exactly my point. Everything concerning who plays against who in this game is random and unable to be cancelled.
You can't apply any laws of averages without stupid amount of research that I'm sure you won't do.

The majority of players are bad, indeed.

But that point works both ways, the majority of snipers are bad, and a bad sniper isn't tearing up a map and causing the kinds of havoc you're referring to in this thread.

Good snipers are capable of controlling a map and destroying bad players, but THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE.

We're capable of dealing with snipers and enjoying the game in its current state, and we're the tards?

Interesting logic there.

THIS is exactly my point, I played CS competitive, and I played a little TF2 competitive as soldier as well..

I stomp pubs frequent enough, and as I play more I only get better.. but that doesnt stop me from seeing when a class is inbalanced.. not havnig 1000's of hours logged doesnt stop me from seeing that sniper has

1) no scope time to kill instant.
2) no loss of mobility
3) rediculous rate of fire
4) no recoil to compensate for with the rate of fire
5) Freeze Traps to control areas of approach
6) flask to deter enemy advancement
7) grapples to defend against close encounters (yes they can grapple back, but thats a 50/50 fight, that comes down to who hits first, not a counter to the sniper)
8) no fall off or bullet drop
9) no FLIGHT TIME, to force leading targets based on movement speed
10) Many maps if not all of them, have clear positions he can snipe from, without being easily flanked.
11) a majority of his cover is SEE THROUGH, which benefits the class with range over the class without.. (yes you know hes there, but you have no way of firing back at him at that range, and he can see you, so attempting to leave cover wil result in him already having the advantage, as he can see you being your movement)
12) any other weapon capable of hitting that far, is either projectile based, and subject to flight time and dodging (again thanks to see through cover he can SEE them coming) or has no scope (rail gun) making it far harder to aim, not capable of instant kills (headshots) and subject to very slow firing rate, if not accompanied by a ROF GOLD, which means you have less armor, only making you weaker.


ALL OF THAT is just what benefits him..

now throw in the fact that headshots can be acheived when just getting CLOSE the player models head..

And you're only argument as a community has been, learn to play and counter him with assault/mortars/assassin.. all of which we can tell you are not hard counters, and come down to you being more skilled than him.

Well thats the issue, you argue competitive play, which is a joke as it does not exist, and so firstly that arguemnt is invalid.. all you can say is that you FEEL you scrims are competitive, they still amount to friends getting together to play.. And secondly even if there were competitive play, balance in competition is done based on an assumed equal level of skill between class's.

I argue that an equally skilled sniper has no counter.. other than map choice.. there are a few maps where sniper is not as bad, but any map that is open and large, provides him see through cover, multiple fall back points, turret protection, ample time to setup and use multiple freezing traps, a flask to toss if a fall back is needed.. and plenty of time to see you coming..

A smart sniper is not going to snipe from a position that allows him to be flanked by a unit without ample time to see the flank coming and counter it..

Almost all of your ways to counter them, like : jet pack over the freezing mines, are negated by a single toss of a flak. use bomb on him, requires you to be in a position to use the bomb on him in the first place, which a skilled sniper is going to deny, or the clear upper hand.. IE: you have pushed to his position, through waves of bots, most likely with a teamate or two, and now have an opportunity to toss a bomb up to him..

Jet packing over head is not likely, since a good sniper can LOOK UP and pop you out of the sky....

HE HAS 0 set up time for shots, no meter like in TF2, that is required to charge.. he can see you and kill u within the same instant.

I'm more inclined to believe this:

You are assuming the scrims you play have a high level of skill.. You have found ways to counter the sniper there, and thus you assume that at a high level of skill the sniper is counterable.

i can tell you from my standpoint, that I have played with highly skilled snipers, in many games, i sniped my self.. and i have seen several (pubbers) (omg what? they arent even competitive) that are reaching the skill celing already, and they do NOT miss, and need almost no time to line up a shot after seeing you.. this are not typical wait in scope pub snipers, they are quick scoping across maps, and during jumps.. its not hacking.. its just POSSIBLE thanks to the fact that the sniper currently has huge rate of fire, rediculuos eye to scope time, and no drop off or corrections to be made for enemy movement, because of instant bullet travel time..

all of these features are popular in game for a reason.

1) Scope to eye time delays
2) scope sway
3) scope shake on hit
4) time till damage potential (team fortress uses this soely)
5) movement penalites while scoped
6) slow rate of fire
7) limited close range capablity
8) reduced damage while not scoped

those are not ALL used at once, but most of them can be found across the new competitive scenes, in 1sies and 2sies here and there.. and for good reason..

Ive played for 12 years, and I don't wanna go back to the days where I used to put tape on my monitor and no scope head shot people all day, and I dont wanna go back to the days where snipers were THE only class once people got good..

TF2 snipers ARE used in competition, when they are needed and when a map calls for them... but they are also siverly gimped (for good reason) compared to the MNC Sniper.

You guys can dislike my comments, or not appreciate that i attacked your Competitive experience, thats fine.. but it is completely WRONG to come here and establish an unattackable defense behind the guise of us not understanding comeptitive play, when this game has no established competitive play in the first place.. it amounts to nothing more than you assuming you play with people who would qualifty for a TWL tournament, when I could easily argue they would not.


if you are knowledgable, be knowledgable.. Present a case, for how to counter them.. but when someone argues back, you don't get to jump to (you are just not good enoug) because that opens to door to arguments like mine, where I can easily say, I dont believe the snipers you are fighting are good enough, or that you are playing at the level you claim..

Instead use more valid arguments to show why all the facts I listed above are OK, when to me and many others here (not all pubers, not claiming i speak for all) feel that they are not..

I have sniped plenty in this game (enough for me to feel bored and un challenged while doing so) and I have seen good snipers control entire teams of 6. That is rediculous. I have also crushed bad snipers using the counters that have been discused here. But when I see the good ones, its apparent that those counters are not effective, as I get head shot during a charged jet back with alltitude drop. Or when I get in position to drop a bomb down or toss one up and start eating flak while he falls back to distance and sets up to pick me off again..

At best you can make them take cover for a few seconds, at worse by the time you get to them you are eating juiced SMG, since they have been able to destroy bots and pros equally from a safe distance for minutes.

Resorting to name calling usualy means the loss of an argument. So yeah.

but I still disagree with you, I'm glad you are able to deal with snipers easily, I dont believe that is the case all the time ( i think you exagerate) or you play on very specific servers, where the class of sniper is NOT on par with what we encounter across pubs. If you really do play comepetitive (which is impossible there is no league you play scrims) that makes even more sense, as you are playing the SAME snipers over and over again.

Either way, i'm 100% sure snipers will get a nerf, and you guys will say its our fault (from your elitist throne) I almost hope they wait until it gets out of control and you guys are forced to eat your words.

than again, I have a feeling most of you play sniper.

If they do receive a nerf I can pretty much guarantee it won't be enough to appease bad players who can't currently deal with snipers.

A rate of fire nerf won't stop you getting headshot.

a rate of fire nerf would not be needed if they fix the headshots.

im fine with the quick body shots, you still have time do something about it, whats not cool is the super large hitbox for the head.

• Reduce or mute audio volume while a sniper is scoped in.
• Similarly, replace the sounds that the sniper hears with sounds near where his rifle is pointed while zoomed in.
• Lazily rip off TF2 and show a laser dot where the sniper is pointing. Additionally, play a beeping sound for players with a dot on them.