Do we need Balance Re-Work?

At now I think that we need a balance Rework... this because the balance at now "Breaks" the game
the problens at now are:
-Bots being UP
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/42-bots-vs-14-tanks.62089/
-Vanguards and Infernos being OP
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/vanguard-testing-from-meta.62142/
-Commander getting "low" health

-Commander being OP underWater
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/commander-vs-boats.62334/#post-968669
-Mobile Arty being OP
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/...game-cause-t2-mortar-tanks.62361/#post-968711
(if there something that I am missing tell me and send the links )

Orbital could use some improvements. While I haven't played it enough to make suggestions, the balance between Umbrellas, Avengers, SXX, and Anchors doesn't seem right.

A big step forward would be to make some ground units anti-orbital. Like the Bluehawk and Catapult.

A total balance re-work isn't really possible at this stage. Every patch is making big progress and for the most part our problems with it keep getting narrower and narrower. It might not look like the balance is great right now because the current meta seems a little off, but a couple small tweaks can have a big impact on the game.

Or just reveal new problems.

Mike

How to fix game balance
Step one: Pick RCBM or Strateta
Step two: Put choosen mod into the game
Step three: Profit??

I mean really, those mods have WAY better balance...

First priority is to make individual units smarter. Some points which are completely off:

• Lack of the ability to re-target when additional targets come in range
• Screwed default target priorities - the real AI does a lot better. Static priority list just won't work, it's highly situational yet a no-brainer for humans.
  
• Units like Dox not auto-kiting. This makes them require an unreasonable amount of attention - only very few player have sufficient APM to spare that amount.

Once these issues are resolved, lots of apparent issues with the current balancing might dissolve naturally. T1 isn't so bad if you don't have to pamper every single platoon manually, Sorians AI has proven it.

Vanguards and Infernos aren't so troublesome either with auto-kiting units. They suddenly become restricted to their designated role: Breaking through stationary defense lines.

I don't think so, we can make some control test, then make a balance mod, and test this mod... if the mod make a good balance, we can suggest those balance to Uber... but them we will need a balance Team...

probably not, the balance can be a Unit AI thing, but most of the times the Unit AI is very good for the game...
the problems that we are agains are more about DPS, health, range, and things like that

Careful. Don't mistake Sorians AI (the "AI player") for the unit AI. Latter one is the problem.

When Sorians AI controls the units, they act quite smart already, it uses different target selection algorithms and it is even capable of kiting. But the default behavior of any player controlled unit is ridiculously stupid.

You misunderstood him there, I am afraid. He wants this skill the AI shows be applied to player-controlled units, too, so you do not have to babysit all your units for them to be somewhat effective.
Also known under the dreadfully loaded term 'automation'.
This might solve many issues automagically, since most units look balanced on paper but only are when microed to high heaven. Letting the AI do some of the micro this might cause the balance to actually play out as spelled out in the units' stats.

Note that I do not support this avenue for vanilla balance (anymore). Uber goes for maximum potential appeal, something that automation does not achieve.

I know, I was referring to the unit AI... not the Sorian...
but even if you micro, probably not the bot, but every unit will fall for the enemy damage...

no disrespect to any modder but i rather care for vanila balance to be right instead of HAVING TO play a mod in order to enjoy the game ... feel free to suggest or request ballance changes from mods for vanilla ... but dont shove mods into my throat ... mods should be optional, not mandatory ...

He is not suggesting to play a mod - he suggest taking a mod and making it the vanilla game.
I don't know too much about Strateta but RCBM is miles ahead of vanilla balance.

again a mod should be optional ... not mandatory and i disagree on just copying an existing mod 1 to 1 ... because those mods feature changed content i dont like either and dont want to have for vanila

I'm gonna keep bringing this up; no matter what you do for stat balance, you will never get a good balance between these unit roles without changes to automated unit behaviors (or adding in some bizarre unit mechanics to one or both sides to compensate).
Vanguards & infernos benefit a lot from automation while their counters cannot, requiring far more micro to be effective.

The CUB fixes this rather well, but still leaves doxen the ability to be microed to a small extent early game. I mean, sure, you still want to micro tanks AWAY from a vanguard wall, but not nearly as severely as before.

No your wrong... lets assume that we are not using some type of unit automation...
w/ the balance rework we can:
reduce the damage of turrets, tanks, T-1 bombers, etc by half and to conpensate reduce the HP of those units by half; leave the bots as they are now, and increase a bit their cost if needed...

this way we can fix 3 problens: the Vanguard, the bot, and the Commander one...

No, *you're wrong.

I don't know what your opinion of the bomber is; with the drastic T1 AA buff, it's become far less useful. Not sure why you think it should be nerf'd.
Turrets are currently quite weak against vehicles, if anything. Walls are required to make them effective, and even then they can be run over without too much difficulty, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting a nerf of them alongside vehicles. T1 tanks probably have too much firepower, that I agree with.

But even if you reduce the health and damage output of infernos; they'll still have an advantage from the automated maneuver behaviour in un-microed altercations. If you nerf them enough to make unmicroed bots a counter, then in microed altercations infernos will likely become completely useless. You've got 2 options; cheesy infernos in unmicroed combat, or significant imbalance in microed combat.

Edit: arbitrary graph to illustrate what I mean:


Balance changes alone probably can't fix the unmicroed balance without completely screwing with the microed balance.

for the bombers... is to conpensate the new HP for land units
but this is a raw balance, just a basis....(if I was going to suggest a balance I would work soo much that Uber would end up hiring me to take care of the balance), but you can put as a mod, and keep changing things until get a good balance...

EDIT- Micro will influence the battle, but not the balance of the game, an example is the T-2 bots for UEF on SupCom... you can buy then and micro, or not build then

I know that and Im saying for UBER to totally adopt some of the ideas behind each of these mods to provide a better balance over the current crap of a balance we have for Vanilla.

such as?